No Christianity?Western Civilization? Democracy? (If the Battle of Salamis ended up differently?)

[bleedingboi]

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This is my second thread about Alternate Historical events. I really wanted History to be appealing to even non- history fanatics.

So to start, The Battle of Salamis. - This is the most decisive Battle in Human History, In Western History, If the Greeks failed, Xerxes would've continued his campaigns further to the west and destroyed Western progress.

This was a decisive naval battle between the Greek city-states and Persia in September, 480 BC in the strait between Piraeus and Salamis Island, an island in the Saronic Gulf near Athens. Many historians argue that Greece’s ensuing independence laid the foundations for Western civilization, and many believe that if the Greeks have lost, the world would have been different.


If the Battle of Salamis was won by the Persians? Would there still be Christians? (considering Xerxes' pagan views and the absence of an impending Roman Empire) Would still there be Democracy? (Ancient Greeks did developed the basics of western cultures and democracy, thanks to them.) Works of philosophy, government, literature, art, and architecture are the ancestors of modern western civilizations.

As much as I want to praise Greek bravery and perseverence, they totally kicked ass, by defeating an army comprised of millions of well-armed, and well-reinforced Persians.


So gather up fellow history fanatics, what's your opinion on this?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_battle_of_salamis

[bleedingboi]

OT: By the way, with the current Greek economic crisis, I hope you guys be able to cope with that and overcome the debts, as how you dealt with millions of Persian waving into your Territories. This thread is an honor and credit given to all Greeks, of how you saved the world...

[æRLO]

pagka dako anang Butterfly Effect. heheh

We will never know but, a lot of outcomes could have aroused from such. Athenian democracy was in fact weakened and replaced because of Alexander the Great, still we have democracy today. I think had the Persians invaded Greece, there would have been a cultural diffusion, as what sometimes happens between the invader and "invadee"--who knows, it could have caused an enlightenment in Xerxes' empire. Then again, anything could have happened.

As for Christianity, let's say the conditions are similar (there would be a Mary, Joseph, etc.) would it be possible for Christianity to flourish under Persian-dominated Israel, instead of a Roman dominated one? some Abrahamic faith has already begun before this time. It wasn't Christianity yet, though. It's all theoretical--parehas sa Hitler and operation Barbossa, but I think mas lisud ni i-determine tungod sa scope.

[machinecult]

Naka dungog ko ani na istorya kung na pilde ni sila wala unta Demokrasya karun etc..but I wouldn't say the Persian Achaemenid empire was terrible compared to other empires. As æRLO said they could have absorb Greek democracy considering they were very progressive and (politically) liberal. We can't really tell.

Achaemenid Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.allempires.com/article/in...nd_institution

As for Christianity, wala pa man hinuon matukod aning panahona. So I don't see how the Persians would be any different with the Greeks during the time of Paul of Tarsus. The biggest threat for early Christians were always the Jews.

[bleedingboi]

Naka dungog ko ani na istorya kung na pilde ni sila wala unta Demokrasya karun etc..but I wouldn't say the Persian Achaemenid empire was terrible compared to other empires. As æRLO said they could have absorb Greek democracy considering they were very progressive and (politically) liberal. We can't really tell.

Achaemenid Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Achaemenid Empire: Government and Institutions - All Empires

As for Christianity, wala pa man hinuon matukod aning panahona. So I don't see how the Persians would be any different with the Greeks during the time of Paul of Tarsus. The biggest threat for early Christians were always the Jews.

Indeed, regime under Xerxes was brutal and freedom was limited. So the world should always be a different one, once under this empire.

OT: There was once a quote inciting Greek bravery according to Herodotus. Here's one...


Farm Boy: There's an army from Persia coming from the east! We need to leave our lands and go to Sparta!
Greek Commander: Where are they?
Farm Boy: Aren't you going to ask me how many are they?
Greek Commander: No. Numbers are mere numbers, it's not big of a deal. It's the location of their army and how close are they from us.


... True Story, when you tell an ancient Greek warrior about an army invading them, they never ask the enemies' numbers, they always ask where they are.

[SioDenz]

If nausab pa ang history, para nko mahitabo ghapon ang nahitabo run. Pero maybe ang time/year ra maoy malahi but ang events mahitabo ghapon.

[machinecult]

Indeed, regime under Xerxes was brutal and freedom was limited. So the world should always be a different one, once under this empire.

Unlike the movie 300 (which is based on comics) the Achaemenid Persians based their empire on tolerance and diplomacy, it was well-known as the most tolerant empire in the ancient world. They banned slavery and under Cyrus freed the Jews from the Babylonians mainly because slavery was against Zoroastrian religion. Cities that were conquered by the Persians continued to practice their own religions, customs, businesses with other nations. If we are to compare which administration was brutal between the Greek and the Persians, I would have to say the Achaemenid Persians were tolerant religiously and socially compared to the Greeks, who were also in a way tolerant but were unique with each other because they govern in city-states. Athens was different in character to Crete, to Corinth, to Sparta etc...Ancient Greece practiced slavery ranging from economic purposes to prostitution. Sparta is well known as a militaristic society and different from ie. liberal Athens, Sparta was far from being a democracy (its an oligarchy) and was indifferent even to fellow Greeks.

You can read why tolerance was an important necessity for Persia here.
History of Iran: Achaemenid Persian Syria 538-331 BCE; Two Centuries of Persian Rule

More info on Persians (downloadable).
http://www.lmoskal.net/worldhistory/whtext/ch04/4.3.pdf

[æRLO]

^we have to keep in mind that Greek city-states did not consider themselves part of a whole. Oftentimes they went to war with each other (like in the Peloponnesian War). di ni sila pareha nato karun nga gi-pundok ang mga Athenians, Corinthians, Spartans, Thebans etc. as a whole. They shared common distinctive traits, pero they identified each other apart from one another.

The Greeks are known to use geography to their advantage, halos tanan decisive battles between the Persians and Greeks, involved a Greek force that were outnumbered BUT used the geography to their advantage. They utilized chokepoints to its potential against the larger Persian forces, at land and at sea.

[bleedingboi]

^we have to keep in mind that Greek city-states did not consider themselves part of a whole. Oftentimes they went to war with each other (like in the Peloponnesian War). di ni sila pareha nato karun nga gi-pundok ang mga Athenians, Corinthians, Spartans, Thebans etc. as a whole. They shared common distinctive traits, pero they identified each other apart from one another.

The Greeks are known to use geography to their advantage, halos tanan decisive battles between the Persians and Greeks, involved a Greek force that were outnumbered BUT used the geography to their advantage. They utilized chokepoints to its potential against the larger Persian forces, at land and at sea.

But seeing the massive Persian army marching at their doorsteps, they didn't have a choice but to unite.

[Scott Bernard]

I think Christianity would still exist. God will still find a way to establish His plan.

Imagine, even when the Roman Empire fell to the Barbarians and Pagans, the conquerors adopted Christianity. Diba ang dapat unta, ang subjected nations kay mao ang mo follow sa culture and religion nila?

Even before that, the Old Roman Empire cannot crush the Early Christians. Bisan ge bawal sa Empire ang Christianity pero a big number of Roman Citizens practice it in secret. That's why Constantine, regardless of what stories we believe in, gave Christianity a chance, whether his reasons are political or spiritual.