On Faith and Salvation

[Carlo Borromeo]

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Have you ever met anyone who’s been to hell and back? Someone who took a stroll passed the pearly gates? I haven’t. And I bet, neither have you.

And if someone did say, “dude, I died and went to heaven and came back here to tell you it’s a really bitchin place,� would you believe him? You would? Really? Good for you. I wouldn’t. The truth, as far as I can see, is that I don’t really know. And deep inside you, really, neither do you.

Sure, you can believe the word of a guy who hasn’t been in this plane of reality for thousands of years, or a book that claims to have been written by a higher being. But have you ever played a game of “Pass the Message?â€� How, little bits of the facts are taken out, forgotten, how the message ends up reallyÂ* screwed up when it reaches the last guy. Multiply that exponentially and you will have how I perceive religion to be.

You expect me to believe a Catholic? The same Catholics who condemn homosexuality but who place child-molesting priests under protective custody? You expect me to believe Fundamentalists? The same group who tell me all the answers are in the Holy Book. I have read the book and it doesn’t even agree with itself. There are TWO versions of the creation of man, various contradictions about the life of Christ, and in Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot offers to have his own daughters raped so long as a bunch of guys don’t commit sodomy. This book? Buddhism? Buddha was an Indian nobleman who wrote and preached profound things, but now, he’s depicted as a fat Chinese dude who does kung-fu.Â*

And I could go on and on.

I’m not an atheist. Far from it. In fact, I’m still searching myself.Â* But I hope you don’t mind if I don’t believe you if you tell me that you have The Answer. How can you possibly have The Answer?Â* Have you been to heaven and back? Do you know anyone who has?

The truth is, we’re all lost and trying to find our way in this world. And if you think you have The Answer, the only way we can both be sure is when we’re both dead and we’re sipping Piña Coladas in Heaven with people named Jesus and Mary.

Until then, don’t get overconfident.

[weedmeister2]

@ Carlo, you have a pretty solid point there dude...

This is the way I see it though. I lose nothing and have eternity to gain in believing... the worst case scenario is I die, and that's that, total death of my material body and spirit (if i have one). Best case, I'd I'll be sitting with JC and His crew sipping mohitos in Heaven. :mrgreen: The only thing is, what if it's not JC sitting there? What if it's the kung-fu master? Oh well, you gotta place your bets bai...

[tolstoi]

@Carlo Boromeo..ok we'll just continue our PM discussion from here..

i am not saying that you have to believe the existing religious dogmas and creeds from whatever denominations..all im saying is, there is a GOD who created all the things around you.

i will not try to convince u that there IS..only time and God's enlightenment could draw you back into HIM :mrgreen:

[tolstoi]

@WEED

Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed. John 20:29

:mrgreen:

[Carlo Borromeo]

Tolstoi,

Oh. I believe in God.

It's people I don't believe in.

It always seems to me that the guy who says he has the answers is the guy who obviously doesnt.

And when you say I mock God, how sure are you that the picture I'm poking fun at is really the picture of God? How sure is anyone? Has anyone who is on this message board REALLY seen God. Or knows what he thinks? Or what perfume he uses?

[enlighten]

so many questions...so little answer seems our lives our full of these and lots of debates and so called theories...I have so many different beliefs my mind is like a sponge so eager to absurd all knowledge/information I seek just to really know what's the beginning and how it will all ends...but then again who does know....and as other says who cares. I thought before I am very spiritual but not religious and very proud of it...but I was so wrong...yes wat happen to me few months ago I can call it in what u have quote "I've been to hell and back" yes its unbelievable but dats wat i can describe wat happen to me and I realize then that there is a God that no matter how many times we tried to deny or question his existence....still there is someone who exist that watches over us....no explanation needed but you will feel it whenever you feel that you are in ur deepest, lowest low where you see no more light and feel you can not go on...anyways I'm still not a very religious person or a very devout catholic but I go to mass often as I've said before pray my rosary dailys as well as other prayers...but all I know is that my faith is stronger and I am much a better person...this is not a sob story or a self righteous one either just want to share to you my points of view of my faith

[iron_golem]

A lot of contradictory statements... but let me post one:

a. the truth is, we are al lost and trying to find our way in this world
b. the only way we can be sure (about something) is when we're dead
arguments:
1. what's the point in searching for a truth when it's not to be found in this world?
2. the only way that a. is true is that the one who said it has died and has said that to a living

[tolstoi]

Tolstoi,

Oh. I believe in God.

It's people I don't believe in.

It always seems to me that the guy who says he has the answers is the guy who obviously doesnt.

And when you say I mock God, how sure are you that the picture I'm poking fun at is really the picture of God? How sure is anyone? Has anyone who is on this message board REALLY seen God. Or knows what he thinks? Or what perfume he uses?

well nobody really made a portrait of Jesus Christ when He walked in this earth..but as the bible goes, Man was created on HIS image and likeness, so the picture of Christ you posted is good criteria for that considering the image was adopted by Catholics for ages, even before Leonardo Da Vinci painted the
controversial Last Supper fresco.

maybe Manny, Dacs or Mosimos here cud shed some light as to the origin of Jesus's visual icon.

[samokan]

You have a point there Carlo. Though when i was a kid ive Â*heard of a person in my Church who died but came back but he never did claim to see heaven or hell. I never forgot the story though of what he saw. He just said that it was dark then he saw a door or gate a person was standing there, he could not see his/her face he was. Then he was asked of the name of the gatekeeper, and when he gave the right answer , he was told that he could pass but it was not yet his time and was told to go back and that's when he woke up.

As Ive said/posted before, am not a catholic/buddhist/muslim and I will never be. Ive been to a lot of religion (christian)trying to find more answers and comparing my religion to other religion but honestly and unfortunately there preaching is not something which I cannot find myself. Brother Elly? Â*I think do have a better explanation of things though.

Right now am venturing into Buddhism and its teaching and at the same time learning more about the christian history. The bloody christian history .

[iron_golem]

the fact that our government is full of corrupt officials does not change my belief in a system of good governance and that a nation of people exists.

that buddha is depicted as a fat guy who does kung-fu does not change the fact that buddha existed and taught about enlightenment. i might depict bodoy as a taong grasa but it will not change anything about bodoy who writes and performs music.

well you could go on and on, but I suggest to first carefully examine what statements you are putting on the table.

the search for truth is a noble thing. it makes no sense if the only way truth works for you is if a dead guy goes back to tell you about it. so far, it's not working that way. only the Christians hold to the belief of a man who died, went to hell and heaven and back. I'm not sure about the other beliefs.

you said you believe in God. how did you arrive at that and what made you sure about that?

the search for truth is the work of the Spirit of Truth. may you be fruitful in your search.