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  1. #11

    Default Re: Web-application evolution?


    Quote Originally Posted by cmontoya
    Hi Mark,
    ...
    Hey, why don't we get together one of these days?
    Carlo, yep, we should. I think we should do something about your writing skills. What's your YM id? Mine's markjeee. Or, perhaps you use something else now for instant messaging.

  2. #12

    Default Re: Web-application evolution?

    @markjee: I don't stay online long so I don't have any reason to install an IM app at home. I'm thinking we could get together after I get back
    from Japan on Feb 12.

    Thank you for your vote of confidence. I admit I write well (although not as well to be a novelist or a tech writer), I'm not interested in blogging
    Heck, I don't read blogs at all. I'm interested in learning the details of the new buzzwords like Web 2.0, mashups. I'm just confused what
    programming language to use (I know I can't do without the standards like xHTML, Javascript, CSS, XML) because there are plenty. While I
    know PHP, it seems (feel lang nako) it's no longer the "favorite." Is this the danger of using open-source programming languages? Are we
    better off using proprietary languages like Java, Visual Basic, C#? In another thread, I heard that you're giving up RoR for MERB. Shouldn't the
    volatility of said technologies scare away business managers? As techies, we love to tinker with new things but as business people, they prefer
    stability. I read that some big companies are still using 30-year old legacy systems to drive business rules and are only using web-interfaces to
    these to keep up with the times (I mean who still uses DOS UI?). Their IS managers probably can't even answer the question, "Give me one
    damn good reason to change 1,000,000 lines of COBOL code that has helped this company earn x dollars, save x dollars?"

  3. #13

    Default Re: Web-application evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmontoya
    ... While I know PHP, it seems (feel lang nako) it's no longer the "favorite." Is this the danger of using open-source programming languages? Are we
    better off using proprietary languages like Java, Visual Basic, C#? In another thread, I heard that you're giving up RoR for MERB. Shouldn't the
    volatility of said technologies scare away business managers? As techies, we love to tinker with new things but as business people, they prefer
    stability. I read that some big companies are still using 30-year old legacy systems to drive business rules and are only using web-interfaces to
    these to keep up with the times (I mean who still uses DOS UI?). Their IS managers probably can't even answer the question, "Give me one
    damn good reason to change 1,000,000 lines of COBOL code that has helped this company earn x dollars, save x dollars?"
    I think it depends on a lot of things and it mostly depend on your dev team. I think comparing Ruby and PHP directly is not logical. In my opinion, the choice of the language or technology depends on what the dev team is used to or comfortable with. In our case, Ruby proved to be a good choice since, one thing we are developing an application, and not just web scripting anymore. In line with this, we want to be able to develop applications and server processes that accesses the same code base we used with the web app. Thereby re-using a lot of codes -- not to mention consistency in our code.

    I think Rails is nice if you're rapidly developing an application, perhaps as a proof-of-concept, or if you don't want to be slowed down with the details. Rails offers a lot of features and conveniences that is not available in other frameworks, like Merb. Together with Ruby, it offers a comprehensive and flexible toolset. However, as we use it for some time, we noticed that we're taking some overhead due to the convention it follows. There's nothing wrong with the convention, but how we develop our application is different in some areas and that following the convention is costly, in terms of memory usage and performance. We realized that Rails in a way offered a lot, but might not be for us and some of them became an overhead which is affecting performance and flexibility -- well it affected in a lot of ways.

    So moving to Merb is not just a try and see decision, we've used Merb already in development and testing, and soon to be in production. And so far, it offered a very lean, lightweight framework that doesn't offer a lot -- but just provides the basics. For newbies, i don't think Merb is a good start -- especially documentation! It's still in heavy development, so the only reliable documentation is the code, and it also changes a lot (like recently with the move to break down the app to merb-core and merb-more).

    I think the decision is what the dev team can do and how far you want to change. In the COBOL argument, i think keeping it in COBOL makes sense, as long as there's no need to integrate with other apps. But then, there are also integration apps that links it to the java world, and in turn links it to the web world. If there's no need to change, then i think it shouldn't change.

    PHP is a powerful language, and i think it should be what web developers try when they are starting. Going directly to Rails or any web framework is a steep climb, since there's just a lot of things that goes behind the scene, not to mention convention. I know, the Rails world encourages people to use it how it teaches to -- ooh do this, do that, magic here, magic there -- the kind of attitude that's plaguing the Rails world now. Lots of people suddenly becoming programmers, without knowing or caring what goes behind the scene. Well this is another story!

    For programmers though, one reason to try Ruby is meta-classes -- and how you can define and redefine classes and objects at run-time. It's amazing what you can do!

  4. #14

    Default Re: Web-application evolution?

    @markjee: Aah. (Pretending to understand)

    Sige, I'll stick with PHP but could you tell me which PHP framework you think I should use? Daghan man pud. Curious lang ko, did you guys create the CakePHP framework?

  5. #15

    Default Re: Web-application evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmontoya
    Sige, I'll stick with PHP but could you tell me which PHP framework you think I should use? Daghan man pud. Curious lang ko, did you guys create the CakePHP framework?
    I have no production experience with any PHP framework, except Seagull; but the Zend framework seems to be a good idea to try, which is officially supported by Zend and will likely follow closely the PHP evolution. I was able to work partly with the Zend framework using the Doctrine ORM library (which personally, i would say is still very fresh).

    Hehe, we didn't create the CakePHP framework, but i contributed to the first Smarty View class for CakePHP -- back when it was still starting (around 2005 i think). I no longer maintain it though, and i think there's a much better implementation now.

    Or, try CakePHP as the implementation is very close to Rails.

  6. #16

    Default Re: Web-application evolution?

    cakephp is quite good, ive managed to used it in one of my projects and planning to used on more often..I'm surprised how fast the development was, from learning to the actual system around 45days 3hr/day and they have great support on IRC too.

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