I fear for the future of photography

[cmontoya]

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@dolina: You're right, there are instances where the scene's dynamic range (SDR) exceeds the camera's dynamic range (CDR). For example, shooting landscapes on a very sunny day. If you were to expose for the sky, your ground would be underexposed and if you were to escape for the ground, then your sky would be overexposed. The solutions would be either to use ND# filters or take bracketed exposures and use HDR software to merge.

You may disagree with #20 but it's up to you and I will not try to change your mind, free will and all. As I've said, the slides are based on what Ansel Adams and his peers formulated.

@yel.Imba: I didn't say that trial and error per se is wrong. My message was if someone was going to teach another person something, then it should be based on correct knowledge. Sayop siguro ako wording na 'trial and error exposure' basin mas sakto 'teaching people to learn exposure via trial and error is wrong, in my opinion." Sorry about that.

Let me elaborate what the YouTube video is teaching.

1. A photographer goes out on a snowy day and shoots a scene in front of him (let's assume the camera is on aperture priority). He takes a shot and previews the photo. The snow isn't white but grayish (assuming the white balance is correct too).

2. He then remembers the YouTube video and switches to manual. He plays around with the shutter speed. He;ll probably use a slower shutter speed and eventually he'll see white snow.

3. Now this is well and good with a DSLR but what about those with film SLR that doesn't have an LCD?

If the photographer already knows to put his exposure indicator at +2 when shooting snow, he could have avoided a lot of steps.

I do agree that he could do trial and error and say, "What if I want my snow brighter or detail-less or what if I want a dreary scene?", then of course by all means, the photographer can under or overexpose.

Also, in time, using trial and error, one may gain the intuition to adjust the EV and get the correct exposure and that's that.

Before I knew the Zone System, I really had to spend a lot of time correcting the exposure with Photoshop. Now, I still do spend some time with post-processing but only in seconds rather than the minutes it took before.

The intent of this thread is to express my opinion that a teacher should use solid knowledge when teaching others. I mean lisod man pud guro kung kung mangutana mo, "Sir unsa ISO ako gamiton?, then inyo teacher mutubag, "Ah, kana, kung hayag gamita pinaka-gamay, kung ngitngit, gamita pinaka-dako?" "Pero sir, unsa na number lagi?" "Trial and error lang bai." "Pero sir film man ni ako camera."

The professional photographer who taught me photography said that I need to learn the basics first, follow the rules before I could break them. I think it was sound advice.

[dolina]

Ansel never used digital.

@dolina: You're right, there are instances where the scene's dynamic range (SDR) exceeds the camera's dynamic range (CDR). For example, shooting landscapes on a very sunny day. If you were to expose for the sky, your ground would be underexposed and if you were to escape for the ground, then your sky would be overexposed. The solutions would be either to use ND# filters or take bracketed exposures and use HDR software to merge.

You may disagree with #20 but it's up to you and I will not try to change your mind, free will and all. As I've said, the slides are based on what Ansel Adams and his peers formulated.

@yel.Imba: I didn't say that trial and error per se is wrong. My message was if someone was going to teach another person something, then it should be based on correct knowledge.

Let me elaborate what the YouTube video is teaching.

1. A photographer goes out on a snowy day and shoots a scene in front of him (let's assume the camera is on aperture priority). He takes a shot and previews the photo. The snow isn't white but grayish (assuming the white balance is correct too).

2. He then remembers the YouTube video and switches to manual. He plays around with the shutter speed. He;ll probably use a slower shutter speed and eventually he'll see white snow.

3. Now this is well and good with a DSLR but what about those with film SLR that doesn't have an LCD?

If the photographer already knows to put his exposure indicator at +2 when shooting snow, he could have avoided a lot of steps.

I do agree that he could do trial and error and say, "What if I want my snow brighter or detail-less or what if I want a dreary scene?", then of course by all means, the photographer can under or overexpose.

Also, in time, using trial and error, one may gain the intuition to adjust the EV and get the correct exposure and that's that.

Before I knew the Zone System, I really had to spend a lot of time correcting the exposure with Photoshop. Now, I still do spend some time with post-processing but only in seconds rather than the minutes it took before.

The intent of this thread is to express my opinion that a teacher should use solid knowledge when teaching others. I mean lisod man pud guro kung kung mangutana mo, "Sir asa gamit ISO?, then inyo teacher mutubag, "Ah, kana, kung hayag gamita pinaka-gamay, kung ngitngit, gamita pinaka-dako?" "Pero sir, unsa na number lagi?" "Trial and error lang bai." "Pero sir film man ni ako camera."

The professional photographer who taught me photography said that I need to learn the basics first, follow the rules before I could break them. I think it was sound advice.

[cmontoya]

@Dolina: Exactly and the camera manufacturers are using the Zone System plus I believe lots of correctly exposed photos in a database to improve the exposure algorithms of their cameras. As I've said, in time, we may all forget the Zone System and just trust the camera. As of now, I don't. But I'm not going to argue that the rest of you shouldn't. Di ko ganahan makig-lalis kay mas ganahan ko amigo kaysa kontra.

Bai, favor lang. Just do the test in slide 1/6 with your camera. Use any priority except manual. Ensure lang na wala lain color in the frame. Kung gray gihapon maski itum or puti na panapton, then the camera you're using still sees in gray. Kung itum or puti, ingna ko unsa na brand/model, kay mangita pud ko and say goodbye to the Zone System. He he.

[yel.Imba]

thanks sd diay sa pag pa remind sa amo about aning zone system brod

[ayahay]

haha katong gagamit pa ko og film slr, dependent kay ko aning exposure indicator, karong ga-dslr na ko, gikalimtan na!! no wonder wa na nagkadimao akong exposures!!! kay gasalig na nga naay lcd. thanks for the reminder. apan gamit kaayo ning indicator, will save you a lot of time.

naa koy sample:


i shot this with film 2 years ago udtong tutok, di ko kalimot ani kay ni-risk ko og 6 pesos ani nga shot ahahaha. -2 ang exposure level ani kay kon saktong 0, feeling nako hayag ra kaayo ni niya like my other noon shots, mawala ang sky.

Nya akong gi-auto levels ang exposure sa photoshop, wala ray nahitabo. As is YeY

[cmontoya]

@yel: Ani ako istorya ani bai. Dugay nako naka-hearing Zone System then ako gi-Google. Kasabot ko gamay pero kasagaran articles ako gibasahan concept ra and wala gi tudlo unsaon pag apply. Then nakabantay ko sa usa ka Google result naa naa diay video tutorial pero bayran. Ako gipangita sa t____s (ako lang gi censor kay bawal mag Jack diri), then ako gi |)L. Nindot siya kay tudluan ka unsaon pag apply Zone System sa DSLR or maski point and shoot. Ako na hinuon gi delete.

Hopefully Aris still has a copy and can share the title of the video.

[dolina]

@Dolina: Exactly and the camera manufacturers are using the Zone System plus I believe lots of correctly exposed photos in a database to improve the exposure algorithms of their cameras. As I've said, in time, we may all forget the Zone System and just trust the camera. As of now, I don't. But I'm not going to argue that the rest of you shouldn't. Di ko ganahan makig-lalis kay mas ganahan ko amigo kaysa kontra.

Bai, favor lang. Just do the test in slide 1/6 with your camera. Use any priority except manual. Ensure lang na wala lain color in the frame. Kung gray gihapon maski itum or puti na panapton, then the camera you're using still sees in gray. Kung itum or puti, ingna ko unsa na brand/model, kay mangita pud ko and say goodbye to the Zone System. He he.

I never studied the Zone System but I ended up using it because I use auto exposure.

Trial and error.

Based on your description on the youtube video it pretty much is a valid way of learning exposure.

The Zone System just needlessly made photography less accessible. Subjects tend to be impatient when it comes to snapshots. Wildlife will not wait for you to get your Zone System in place. Ansel's famous for landscapes and as such had the time for his tweaks.

No need to try slide 1/6 as auto exposure really does attempt to show detail in white or black colors. So it under or over expose when it comes to white or balck colors respectively.

The thing with your test is that when people are out at night partying they really want 'black' to be 'grey'. Now if we were to apply Ka Ansel's system then all the wild drunken party photos would have all the gwapas all in the dark.

Zone System is like the abacus. Ok siya but meron ng Excel.

Insisting people do manual exposure all the time is like insisting people abandon autofocus and manual focus instead because autofocus does not work 100% of the time.

[P-Chan]

the video is not all that bad... we just have to be a little open minded in learning techniques in exposure kahibaw man ta shutter speed and aperture aside from effecting exposure naa man pud siya effect2x..

zone system is very good for exposure but not perfect.. it focuses more on the exposure than the effects2x..

the guy in the video's style tingali is probably nga like you explore sa mga effects like if pa hinayon ang shutter unsa ang gawas.. or ang aperture i.duwa2x unsa ang gawas.. a okay technique to graduate from semi-manual to full manual..

[cmontoya]

I hope this thread doesn't become a traditional vs. hi-tech debate.

1) I never insisted that photographers use manual exposure. I'm pretty sure evaluative or matrix metering works most of the time.

2) I also don't encourage technically correct exposure every time. In fact, in most events, I use a flash and keep the shutter speed at 1/200 no matter what my aperture is. I play around with the ISO and flash power output.

I used the 'Zone System' here and the result is not something my office mates would appreciate. I guess this is what dolina was referring to.



so, I used a flash and kissed the Zone Sytem's butt goodbye in this case



3) I'm not an expert nor a professional so maybe what I had to say holds no water so maybe Mr. Rockwell can help, The Zone System

"The Zone System applies as much to color, digital and video as it does to black-and-white. Ansel Adams even shows us in The Negative how to use it with point and shoot cameras!"

"Digital cameras no longer require spot meters. Spot meters were used to evaluate subjects before they were photographed. It was the only way we had to predict exactly how to expose, develop and print before we made an exposure on film. Today we have histograms and LCDs instead. Today I use a digital camera instead of a spot meter to evaluate this better than a spot meter for my view camera!"

"The Zone System allows you to get the right exposure every time without guessing. It does not require you do any special film development and you never have to waste time with bracketing. Now aren't you interested?'

"If you are shooting a modern SLR, use your built in meter in Matrix (Nikon) or evaluative (Canon) and forget about most of this. You will need to know when to compensate you meter a bit, but otherwise all Matrix and evaluative systems incorporate the Zone System automatically."

In summary, I may have reacted too quickly. Yes, the YouTube vid may be correct in saying you can start with aperture, take note of the shutter speed, set to manual and start with the same shutter speed and play with it. Trial and error and through experimentation, maybe, you can actually learn the Zone System without actually knowing its name. My personal bias got the better of me.

With that said, I still use the Zone System when I am in control but during events I use a flash. Like dolina said, I certainly can't tell people to stand still while I take an exposure reading

[dolina]

Mr Ken Rockwell is very respected on the Internet. He supports his growing family via his website.

1) By telling people you do not auto expose you are advocating people do manual exposure all the time.

Spot meters are useful when you want to meter for a specific area of a frame. Put in a different way meter for the subject and to heck for everything else in frame.

To be honest no one really cares about the back story of how you got the shot or why you could not get the shot. What people care about is the photo and if it speaks to them.

When I say people I am referring to those uninterested with what camera, lens, settings, etc was used. If people talk more about the backstory than the photo then you have a boring photo. It is like how obsessed people are with ISO noise. If people notice the noise more than your photo then you have a boring photo.

You can use the Zone System of people but expect them to complain that you are taking too long and expect em not to have their photos taken by you in the future. Dugay eh.

I hope this thread doesn't become a traditional vs. hi-tech debate.

1) I never insisted that photographers use manual exposure. I'm pretty sure evaluative or matrix metering works most of the time.

3) I'm not an expert nor a professional so maybe what I had to say holds no water so maybe Mr. Rockwell can help, The Zone System

"The Zone System applies as much to color, digital and video as it does to black-and-white. Ansel Adams even shows us in The Negative how to use it with point and shoot cameras!"

"Digital cameras no longer require spot meters. Spot meters were used to evaluate subjects before they were photographed. It was the only way we had to predict exactly how to expose, develop and print before we made an exposure on film. Today we have histograms and LCDs instead. Today I use a digital camera instead of a spot meter to evaluate this better than a spot meter for my view camera!"

"The Zone System allows you to get the right exposure every time without guessing. It does not require you do any special film development and you never have to waste time with bracketing. Now aren't you interested?'

"If you are shooting a modern SLR, use your built in meter in Matrix (Nikon) or evaluative (Canon) and forget about most of this. You will need to know when to compensate you meter a bit, but otherwise all Matrix and evaluative systems incorporate the Zone System automatically."

In summary, I may have reacted too quickly. Yes, the YouTube vid may be correct in saying you can start with aperture, take note of the shutter speed, set to manual and start with the same shutter speed and play with it. Trial and error and through experimentation, maybe, you can actually learn the Zone System without actually knowing its name. My personal bias got the better of me.

With that said, I still use the Zone System when I am in control but during events I use a flash. Like dolina said, I certainly can't tell people to stand still while I take an exposure reading