Originally Posted by
chad_tukes
nope. in reality you are not solving a bigger puzzle coz if you were, you wouldn't be making such stunning conclusive statements about the Bible without REAL back up evidence. the burden of proof is on you to disprove your belief. until now, you and 99% of Christians cannot give validity to your beliefs. thus, it is as good as delusion.
Sure I can, because there in no true scientific proof against the Bible. Sure wild Theories with no real tangible proof just assumptions and blind accusations, driven by Atheist like you with personal agendas grasping at any straw that makes you feel safe as you spit in God's eye. Your only agenda is to disprove God and the Bible. The personal crusade of a disgruntled choirboy, and anyone that dares disagrees with you is then stupid and subject to scorn, ridicule and googlely eyed smiley faces.
i do not claim to know tons of information on history. however, i am willing to read and learn about history. even devoting a whole life studying history is not enough. just look at you---you also don't know squat yet. it's pretty evident.
Than please read your history, because you have a lot of reading to do. Yes I have read history my whole life, it is a passion of mine. I still can not know everything, but I know a hell of a lot more than you. The squat I do know is a huge mountainous pile, more than your's.
no worries---you didn't burst any little lie bubble. you keep arguing that America has been founded on core religious values but you deny the fact that our forefathers were secularists so you take secularism out of the equation and keep injecting RELIGION in America's foundation. you did not or cannot present any evidence of your argument, therefore it is not valid to say contradictory statements about America's history.
Granted, God is not mentioned in the Constitution, but He is mentioned in every major document leading up to the final wording of the Constitution. For example, Connecticut is still known as the "Constitution State" because its colonial constitution was used as a model for the United States Constitution. Its first words were: "For as much as it has pleased the almighty God by the wise disposition of His Divine Providence…"
Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". Sounds Christian to me.
Ben Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, said: "...God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"
John Adams stated so eloquently during this period of time that; "The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were ... the general principles of Christianity ... I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
Later, John Quincy Adams answered the question as to why, next to Christmas, was the Fourth of July this most joyous and venerated day in the United States. He answered: "...Isit not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?" Sounds like the founding of a Christian nation to me.
John Quincy Adams went on to say that the biggest victory won in the American Revolution was that Christian principles and civil government would be tied together In what he called an "indissoluble" bond. The Founding Fathers understood that religion was inextricably part of our nation and government. The practice of the Christian religion in our government was not only welcomed but encouraged.
The intent of the First Amendment was well understood during the founding of our country. The First Amendment was not to keep religion out of government. It was to keep Government from establishing a 'National Denomination" (like the Church of England). As early as 1799 a court declared: "By our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing." Even in the letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Baptists of Danbury Connecticut (from which we derive the term "separation of Church and State") he made it quite clear that the wall of separation was to insure that Government would never interfere with religious activities because religious freedom came from God, not from Government.
Even George Washington who certainly knew the intent of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, since he presided over their formation, said in his "Farewell Address": "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars." Sure doesn't sound like Washington was trying to separate religion and politics.
John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, and one of the three men most responsible for the writing of the Constitution declared: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty-as well as privilege and interest- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." Still sounds like the Founding Fathers knew this was a Christian nation.
This view, that we were a Christian nation, was hold for almost 150 years until the Everson v. Board of Education ruling in 1947. Before that momentous ruling, even the Supreme Court knew that we were a Christian nation. In 1892 the Court stated: "No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people...This is a Christian nation." There it is again! From the Supreme Court of the United States. This court went on to cite 87 precedents (prior actions, words, and rulings) to conclude that this was a "Christian nation".
In 1854, the House Judiciary Committee said: "in this age, there is no substitute for Christianity...That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.'
It should be noted here that even as late as 1958 a dissenting judge warned in Baer v. Kolmorgen that if the court did not stop talking about the "separation of Church and State", people were going to start thinking it was part of the Constitution.
It has been demonstrated in their own words: Ben Franklin, George Washington and John Adams, to the House of Representatives and the Supreme Court, how our founding fathers felt about the mix of politics and religion.
When I read statements such as "What's God got to do with it?" and "The wall between state and church must not be breached" it just reaffirms how little, even intelligent people, understand about the founding of our great Republic. To say that this nation was not founded as a Christian nation or that the Constitution was not founded on Christian principles is totally at odds with the facts of history. So I guess I have all the evidence I need, and you choose to ignore.
You offer a first draft Treaty that was expunged after 8 years, as your proof that the US was not founded on Christian values. No chief you want to ignore way too much
Christianity in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
do not ignore the significance of the Treaty of Tripoli. this Treaty was drafted in 1796 under George Washington and signed by John Adams in 1797.
seriously, do you even know anything about this treaty. have you read it? i suggest you do, because it details what America
IS NOT. your biased religious views make you anxious to push your own version of America's history. you keep telling me to know my history and i know little about it. well, everytime you tell me that, i'll pass it on to you. your turn.
Yes I read it, I am well acquainted with the events that lead to the altercation that is the opening line to the Marine Corps Hymn.
And this is your proof that America is not founded on Christianity of Christian values.
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Well here are some facts you chose to ignore:
The treaty was written by a treaty negotiator named Joel Barlow, who had replaced Tobias Lear, former secretary of George Washington. And that Joel Barlow faced a dilemma. Muslims had been at war with the "Christian Nations" of Europe for over 1000 years, because the Qur'an commands.
The point that the Treaty of Tripoli "remained on the books for eight years, at which time the treaty was renegotiated, and Article 11 was dropped."
That famous phrase does not exist at all in the Arabic copy. There is no Article 11 in the Arabic copy. The Arabic text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli.
Peter Earle's book, Corsairs of Malta and Barbary
"Pirate ships and crews from the North African states of Tripoli, Tunis, Morocco, and Algiers (the Barbary Coast) were the scourge of the Mediterranean. Capturing merchant ships and holding their crews for ransom provided the rulers of these nations with wealth and naval power. In fact, the Roman Catholic Religious Order of Mathurins had operated from France for centuries with the special mission of collecting and disbursing funds for the relief and ransom of prisoners of Mediterranean pirates."
"Since the sixteenth century, corsairs from the Muslim states of North Africa had controlled the Mediterranean sea lanes by force. At the time the United States won its independence, the states of the Barbary Coast--Tripoli, Algiers, Morocco, and Tunis--had been preying on the world's merchant ships for three hundred years. The Barbary pirates' methods were fairly simple: cruising the Mediterranean in small, fast ships, they boarded merchant ships, overwhelmed the crew, and took them captive. The crews were held in captivity until their home countries agreed to pay ransoms for their release. If no ransom was forthcoming, the crews were sold into slavery. Over time, most countries found it expedient simply to pay a yearly tribute to the sultans, thereby buying their ships free passage through the Mediterranean."
Earle adds that the defining factor for the Muslim corsairs in attacking a ship was "that they worshiped a different God." They were specifically after Christian shipping. To them, this was a "holy war" as much as the Crusades were". Keep this in mind when you consider that wording, these Pirates were milking over 1 million dollars a year out of a new beginning country.
In his "Essays Dealing with the Russo-Turkish War and on Greece" (NY: The American Annual Register for 1827-28-29, 1830), John Quincy Adams wrote:
"The victorious may be appeased by a false and delusive promise of peace...
"The faithful follower of the Prophet may submit to the imperious necessities of defeat, but the command to propagate the Muslim creed by the sword is always obligatory when it can be made effective...
"The commands of the Prophet may be performed alike, by fraud or by force."
John Quincy Adams continued:
"Of Mahometan good faith, we have had memorable examples ourselves.
"When our gallant Commodore Stephen Decatur had chastised the pirate of Algiers, till he was ready to renounce his claim of tribute from the United States, he signed a treaty to that effect:
"but the treaty was drawn up in the Arabic language, as well as in our own; and our negotiators, unacquainted with the language of the Qur'an, signed the copies of the treaty in both languages, not imagining that there was any difference between them.
"Within a year the Dey (Moroccan leader "Omar Bashaw") demands, under penalty of the renewal of the war, an indemnity in money for the frigate taken by Stephen Decatur;
"Our Consul demands the foundation of this pretension; and the Arabic copy of the treaty, signed by himself is produced, with an article stipulating the indemnity, foisted into it, in direct opposition to the treaty as it had been concluded."
Imagine that, Muslims wrote the Treaty in Arabic in direct opposition to the Treaty in English.
John Quincy Adams further explained:
"The arrival of Commodore Isaac Chauncey, with a squadron before Algiers, silenced the fraudulent claim of the Dey, and he signed a new treaty in which it was abandoned; but he disdained to conceal his intentions;
"My power, said he, has been wrested from my hands; draw ye the treaty at your pleasure, and I will sign it; but beware of the moment, when I shall recover my power, for with that moment, your treaty shall be waste paper."
John Quincy Adams concluded:
"Such is the spirit which governs the hearts of men to whom treachery and violence are taught as principles of religion."
Interpret from that what you wish, but you are wrong, you may not wish to admit it and just provide more baseless comments, demands for more proof, and stupid smiley faces. But you are still wrong. It is not your fault, you are just the product of the new educational system which has been debased by a Socialist Liberal Left agendas and Atheist influences trying to rewrite the history of the United States, and a failing society. It is all in preparation for the New World Order and is written in scripture. It is tearing the United States apart from the inside, it is just too bad most Americans can not pull their heads out of their asses to see it. No wonder most Americans just have Rectum optics.
I will give you this, you are right Americans have become stupid. Not for their belief in God, but for standing by and letting those that do not love God and Country slowly destroy America. It will not be standing tall much longer, then everyone will realize they have been doupted. Things lost rarely return, what a shame.
But a silly question what the hell does any of this have to do with Noah's Flood, boy did we jack this man's topic or what? Sorry
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