Islam

[fingolfin]

---

.. i would like to start off with this little disclaimer, I made this thread not to ridicule nor bash at Islam, but i made this to make questions about Islam, ever since i arrived here in taif, ksa, a lot of my english-speaking patients have invited me to convert to islam, they have claimed that islam is the true religion, it is a religion given DIRECTLY FROM GOD. And I generously accepted their invitation to listen to islamic scholars discuss about the Koran and one thing has baffled me; they boldly claimed and assured that the koran IS science, or to rephrase it, the koran had already explained the just-discovered scientific facts on the year 622 AD and that God gave that knowledge to Mohammad to be made as a guide to man. That made me think and started reading the famous Hadiths in the Koran that were "assumed" to be scientific facts and the life of Mohammad and the history of pre-islamic arabia and it's relationship with it's neighbours. As you guys well know, im an atheist, but like i said, i'm not here to bash Islam, i'm only here to ask questions and think rationally about islam's conclusion that koran is science. Oh and pardon me if i'm a little sarcastic at times, don't take it personally, that's just the way i talk. nyehehe

Anyway .... let's focus on this very bold claim: KORAN IS FROM GOD AND KORAN IS SCIENCE.

And I ask you people to open your mind and look at this at a bigger perspective, when you try to answer my questions or discuss the issues with me, please try to relate the koran to everything, from the earth's evolution, to man's evolution, to the slow progress of science, to the progress of human civilization, to everything.


.. i really don't know where to begin, but first thing that comes to my mind is mohammad and the origins of koran, let's start from here... IF KORAN IS FROM A DIVINE GRACE THEN WHY DID MOHAMMAD TOOK 22 YEARS FOR IT TO COMPLETE HIS REVELATIONS ?? To be exact, it wasn't him that made koran but his followers coz as the muslims say, that mohammad was an illetirate. Was he really a bedouin ?? He was born of a rich and prominent family but sadly his father died and was sent to his relatives and then his mother died and he was a geniune orphan then and when he grew up, he became a merchant. There's the profession that is in question. MOHAMMAD A MERCHANT. Let's do some little logic here and talk about the responsibilities of a merchant, a merchant would be a person who deals with the exchange of goods and when you do that, you need to have brains to deal with your customers or clients, YOU NEED TO KNOW HOW TO READ AND WRITE. Coz c'mon, how can you make deals when you're an illetirate And no matter how dumb you are, when you're a merchant, having met a lot of people and trading with them, you'll be able to learn something. And that I think what happened to mohammad. He became a literate. I'm just using common logic here people. But the muslims stay true to their claim that mohammad was an illeterate.

.. but granting that he is an eliterate, why did it took GOD 22 years to give his revelations ?? Look, if it was really coming from God, then God would have given it to mohammad INSTANTLY and gave mohammad the power to talk in different tounges, be able to write and made the koran in a day. But why the very long years


.. i'll just stop from here, let's focus first on mohammad, let's talk more on koran's scientific claims and teachings later ....


.. oh and one more thing, this thread is all about islam, let's stay on topic shall we

[Tirong-say]

Born in 570 in the Arabian city of Mecca,[11] he was orphaned at an early age and brought up under the care of his uncle Abu Talib. He later worked mostly as a merchant, as well as a shepherd, and was first married by age 25. Discontented with life in Mecca, he retreated to a cave in the surrounding mountains for meditation and reflection. According to Islamic beliefs it was here, at age 40, in the month of Ramadan, where he received his first revelation from God. Three years after this event Muhammad started preaching these revelations publicly, proclaiming that "God is One", that complete "surrender" to Him (lit. islām) is the only way (dīn)[12] acceptable to God, and that he himself was a prophet and messenger of God, in the same vein as other Islamic prophets.[9][13][14]
Muhammad gained few followers early on, and was met with hostility from some Meccan tribes; he and his followers were treated harshly. To escape persecution first Muhammad sent some of his followers to Abyssinia before he and his remaining followers in Mecca migrated to Medina (then known as Yathrib) in the year 622. This event, the Hijra, marks the beginning of the Islamic calendar, which is also known as the Hijri Calendar. In Medina, Muhammad united the conflicting tribes, and after eight years of fighting with the Meccan tribes, his followers, who by then had grown to ten thousand, conquered Mecca. In 632, a few months after returning to Medina from his Farewell pilgrimage, Muhammad fell ill and died. By the time of his death, most of the Arabian Peninsula had converted to Islam; and he united the tribes of Arabia into a single Muslim religious polity.[15][16]

Source:

Muhammad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is nothing mentioned about educational background maybe he is truly an illiterate. I wonder if Muhammad is a self proclaimed prophet, did someone or a group gave to him such a divine tittle?....

[fingolfin]

.. yes, as far as I know, mohammad was a self proclaimed prophet, at age 40 or so, he went into this cave for 3 years for meditation and after that he declared that the angel Gabriel gave him a revelation and that God said to him to proclaim his orders and decrees. Mohammad said that he is the culmination of all the prophets before him. Adam, Abraham, Isiah, Moses, Jesus ...... it's really a bold claim coming from a mere merchant.

[miramax]

Bro, I was told that in Saudi...any expat who wants to convert to Islam (embraces islam) will get some cold, cold cash.

[Tirong-say]

Dr. Yoshihide Kozai is Professor Emeritus at Tokyo University, Hongo, Tokyo, Japan, and was the Director of the National Astronomical Observatory, Mitaka, Tokyo, Japan. He said:

“I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in [the] Quran, and for us the modern astronomers have been studying very small pieces of the universe. We’ve concentrated our efforts for understanding of [a] very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts [of] the sky without thinking [about the] whole universe. So, by reading [the] Quran and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe.”

Source:

Scientists’ Comments on the Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran - The Religion of Islam

According to scientists the quran is also explaining about science, does this account coming from Muhammad as well?

[jamesmusslewhite]

fingolfin

I have no desire to talk bad about Islam, back in the Houston I had several Muslims but we did not involk much conversation on this subject. They avoided questions and tended to try to maintain one sided discussions. I valued the friendships and decided not to push this issue, but 6 different friends reacted the same way, they were very illusive and did not want to discuss these writings. Yet they are in the Qur'an and they all study them. but I can never get a straight answer pertaining to the 164 jihad Verses. If one is a true believer of Islam how do they ignore these verses, when they are commanded by Allah to follow them.

Richard Dawkins Reasons With A Muslim
YouTube - RICHARD DAWKINS REASONS WITH A MUSLIM
Just a little peek behind the vail.

"164 Jihad Verses in the Koran -- Passages in the Quran about Islamic Holy War" compiled by Yoel Natan

[fingolfin]

@miramax, that is not true, trust me, im here in Taif, Saudi. But that depends on your employer, but i havent heard any pinoy here who converted to islam that got a cash bonus.


@tirong, in islam, mohammad and koran is synonymous. coz the koran came from mohammad and mohammad claimed that God gave that knowledge to him.


.. ok let's start talking about the koran now, since both mohammad and koran can be discussed in the same plain.

.. let's focus on my main issue of" according to islam, koran IS science ... let's start to dissect the very famous Hadiths in Koran ...

[Tirong-say]

There are three specific verses in the Qur'an concerning human creation:[48] ([Qur'an 3:59], [Qur'an 4:1], [Qur'an 32:7]) According to the first two verses, Adam and Eve were directly created by God from clay that give sound, they did not descend from any other species as proposed by Charles Darwin and the rest of mankind is the progeny of Adam and Eve. The third verse implies that there were three stages in their creation, and can be interpreted as follows:[48]

• 
  
  • Adam and Eve were created from clay that gives sound
  • They subsequently developed the ability to reproduce at a later age
  • Finally, after an additional period of time, there was a third phase in which they were perfected both physically and spiritually, and received the divine spirit from God

Source:
Islam and science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dili pud diay sila motuo ug evolution..............

[fingolfin]

And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days, and naught of weariness touched Us. (Qur'an 50:3


.. that is the passage in koran for the creation. Where is the scientific evidence in that ?? that is as vague as it gets.


i'll put in more later ... i still have to go to work ...

[Malic]

.. i would like to start off with this little disclaimer, I made this thread not to ridicule nor bash at Islam, but i made this to make questions about Islam, ever since i arrived here in taif, ksa, a lot of my english-speaking patients have invited me to convert to islam, they have claimed that islam is the true religion, it is a religion given DIRECTLY FROM GOD. And I generously accepted their invitation to listen to islamic scholars discuss about the Koran and one thing has baffled me; they boldly claimed and assured that the koran IS science, or to rephrase it, the koran had already explained the just-discovered scientific facts on the year 622 AD and that God gave that knowledge to Mohammad to be made as a guide to man. That made me think and started reading the famous Hadiths in the Koran that were "assumed" to be scientific facts and the life of Mohammad and the history of pre-islamic arabia and it's relationship with it's neighbours. As you guys well know, im an atheist, but like i said, i'm not here to bash Islam, i'm only here to ask questions and think rationally about islam's conclusion that koran is science. Oh and pardon me if i'm a little sarcastic at times, don't take it personally, that's just the way i talk. nyehehe

Anyway .... let's focus on this very bold claim: KORAN IS FROM GOD AND KORAN IS SCIENCE.

And I ask you people to open your mind and look at this at a bigger perspective, when you try to answer my questions or discuss the issues with me, please try to relate the koran to everything, from the earth's evolution, to man's evolution, to the slow progress of science, to the progress of human civilization, to everything.


.. i really don't know where to begin, but first thing that comes to my mind is mohammad and the origins of koran, let's start from here... IF KORAN IS FROM A DIVINE GRACE THEN WHY DID MOHAMMAD TOOK 22 YEARS FOR IT TO COMPLETE HIS REVELATIONS ?? To be exact, it wasn't him that made koran but his followers coz as the muslims say, that mohammad was an illetirate. Was he really a bedouin ?? He was born of a rich and prominent family but sadly his father died and was sent to his relatives and then his mother died and he was a geniune orphan then and when he grew up, he became a merchant. There's the profession that is in question. MOHAMMAD A MERCHANT. Let's do some little logic here and talk about the responsibilities of a merchant, a merchant would be a person who deals with the exchange of goods and when you do that, you need to have brains to deal with your customers or clients, YOU NEED TO KNOW HOW TO READ AND WRITE. Coz c'mon, how can you make deals when you're an illetirate And no matter how dumb you are, when you're a merchant, having met a lot of people and trading with them, you'll be able to learn something. And that I think what happened to mohammad. He became a literate. I'm just using common logic here people. But the muslims stay true to their claim that mohammad was an illeterate.

.. but granting that he is an eliterate, why did it took GOD 22 years to give his revelations ?? Look, if it was really coming from God, then God would have given it to mohammad INSTANTLY and gave mohammad the power to talk in different tounges, be able to write and made the koran in a day. But why the very long years


.. i'll just stop from here, let's focus first on mohammad, let's talk more on koran's scientific claims and teachings later ....


.. oh and one more thing, this thread is all about islam, let's stay on topic shall we

On the issue of Mohammad being illiterate...
yes, according to Muslim scholars he is. As to why he was a good merchant inspite of his illiteracy, well the answer maybe because he was trained well by his uncle and relatives. Mohammad (pbuh) belongs to a tribe of successful businessmen. In Islamic history records his relatives or clan were the rulings class of their place. that maybe is the answer to that question. let me also tell this story. I have this friend that since from birth he was not given any basic education by his parents, so he grew up not knowing how to read and write, in other words he is illiterate. But you would be surprise because when it comes to business he is quite good at it, he knows how to strategized and can market his goods fairly.

on 22 years to give his revelations...
unsa pasabot nimo ani fingolfin? that it took 22 years before the qur'an was made or 22 years nga na complete ang Revelation from God?

and yes God can choose to possess the body of Mohammad or struck his power on Mohammad that he will start to speak and understand different tongues but we find that it was not so, well that's God's call He can choose whatever instruments or process he wants.

and what do you mean by Hadiths in koran? Hadiths are the sunnah of the Prophet and qur'an is a direct Revelation from Allah. so what do you mean by Hadiths in the koran?