RELIGION....(part 2)

**dacs** · 03-24-2006, 02:49 PM

Sorry, double post.

**mannyamador** · 03-24-2006, 09:18 PM

Was Origen the Origin of the Septuagint?
Debunking the false history of Bible fanatics

It has been asserted that the Alexandrian canon of the Hebrew scriptures, which was used by the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament), was created by Origen, perhaps in coordination with the allegedly quarrelsome scholars in Alexandria. It is also asserted that this Alexandrian canon is a corrupted canon of the Bible first put together in Antioch, and is thus not a the real Bible.

These claims are totally false, as we shall see.

Origen the Origin?

The claim that Origen created the Alexandrian canon, whch is supposedly a corruption of the Antioch canon of the Bible is patently false. This is clear from the historical facts.

FACT: The Alexandrian canon was created BEFORE the foundation of Christianity

Historians generally acknowledge that the Septuagint version, using the Alexandrian canon, was established way before Christ's Incarnation. For example:

From: http://www.septuagint.net/

Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish
Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between
300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because
many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process
of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an
ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were
commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term
"Septuagint" means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars
From a non-Catholic source (actually, anti-catholic)
History of the Bible: How The Bible Came To Us (By Wesley Ringer)
http://www.godandscience.org/apologe...bleorigin.html

250 B.C. The Old Testament was translated into Greek. This translation is known as the Septuagint. It is
sometimes designated "LXX" (which is Roman numeral for "70") because it was believed that 70 to 72
translators worked to translate the Hebrew Old Testament in Greek. The Septuagint was often used by
New Testament writers when they quoted from the Old Testament. The LXX was translation of the Old
Testament that was used by the early Church.
From: The Catholic Encyclopedia
Old Testament
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14526a.htm

The Bible Text before Christ

As regards the preceding centuries, we are relatively well informed. In place of the missing manuscripts
we have the ancient Greek Version of the Old Testament, the so- called Septuagint, or Alexandrian,
Version. The Pentateuch was translated in the first half of the third century, but it cannot be determined
in what order and at what intervals the other books followed. Yet in the case of the majority of the
books the work was probably completed about the middle of the second century B.C.

Other references:

Septuagint
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13722a.htm
Canon of the Old Testament
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm

FACT: Origen was born around 185 AD.
See the following articles on Origen:

From the Catholic Encyclopedia
Origen
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11306b.htm
From the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
http://www.iep.utm.edu/o/origen.htm

So, is Origen the origin of the Alexandrian canon? Not so. Origen wrote the Hexapla, his version of the Old Testament in Hebrew and Greek. But prior to that, the early Church was already using the Septuagint!

It is also important to note that the Catholic Church does NOT consider Origen to be a Church Father, contrary to what some anti-catholic literature claims. At the the Second Council of Constantinople in 553., the anathema against Origen and others states:

If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris, Nestorius, Eutyches and
Origen, as well as their impious writings, as also all other heretics already condemned and anathematized
by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and by the aforesaid four Holy Synods and [if anyone does
not equally anathematize] all those who have held and hold or who in their impiety persist in holding to
the end the same opinion as those heretics just mentioned: let him be anathema.
(http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/const2.html)

Christ and the Septuagint

Christ Himself used the Septuagint version. Protestant often like to quote Mark 7:6-8 and use it to attack the Catholic Church. Here, Christ condemns "teaching as doctrines human traditions." But they forget that that in Mark 7:6-8 Jesus was quoting the version of Isaiah that is found only in the Septuagint version of the Old Testament. And the Septuagint contains the Deuterocanonical books which Protestants consider to be "apocrypha"! Quite contradictory.

Hebrews 11:35 also refers to incidents that cannot be found anywhere in the Protestant canon. But it is found in 2 Maccabees, which is in the Septuagint, whiich is in Catholic versions of the Bible!

The historical and scriptural record is quite clear. Origen did not make the Alexandrian canon, and neither did he corrupt the Catholic Bible. if there is any corruption being done, it is by those who have removed the Deuterocanonical Books!

**mannyamador** · 03-25-2006, 07:17 PM

â€œLove is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.â€ â€“ I CORINTHIANS 13:4-7

Lord,

Because love is patientâ€¦
Help me to be slow to judge, but quick to listen.
Hesitant to criticize, but eager to encourage,
remembering your endless patience with me.

Because love is kindâ€¦
Help my words to be gentle and my actions to be thoughtful. Remind me to smile and to say â€œPleaseâ€ and â€œThank Youâ€ because those little things still mean so much.

Because love does not envy or boast, and it is not proudâ€¦
Help me have a heart that is humble and sees the good in others. May I celebrate and appreciate all that I have and all that I am, as well as doing the same for those around me.

Because love is not rude or self-seekingâ€¦
Help me to speak words that are easy on the ear and on the heart. When Iâ€™m tempted to get wrapped up in my own little world, remind me thereâ€™s a great big world out there full of needs and hurts.

Because love is not easily angered and keeps no record of wrongsâ€¦
Help me to forgive others as you have forgiven me. When I want to hold onto a grudge, gently help me release it so I can reach out with a hand of love instead.

Because love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truthâ€¦
Help me stand up for what is right and good. May I defend the defenseless, and help the helpless. Show me how I can make a difference.

Because love always protects and always trustsâ€¦
Help me to be a refuge for those around me. When the world outside is harsh and cold, may my heart be a place of acceptance and warmth.

Finally, because love always perseveres â€¦
Help my heart continually beat with love for You and others. Thank you for this day when we celebrate love, and for showing us what that word really means.

Amen.

**Cardinal Bunal** · 03-26-2006, 06:59 AM

What then is the GOOD NEWS of salvation in the Roman Catholic faith?

And in the same way, what was the effect of Christ's death on the cross? How does it benefit Catholics? Remember other ordinances like Baptism, or even the Lord's supper reflect on Christ's death, his death on the cross, the former also reflects new life and release from the mastery of sin (if immersion is the method).......

So what then is the effect of Christ's death for Catholics?

**Gwynhuever** · 03-26-2006, 07:27 AM

@mannyamador...nice post about love bro... :mrgreen:

**Djames** · 03-26-2006, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by s.n.m.p.

bay chard, ako nakadayeg sa imo obserbasyon. tinood. Uyon ako nga usahay wala matarong pagkadala ang atong Katolikong ssimbahan. Naay pwera gaba nga maga obispo sama niini ni Bishop Capalla nga ni kunsinti sa kabuang ni GMA. Nahibalo man ni si Capalla nga dili maayo ang binuhatan nga tikas ug jueteng ni GMa, molaban man gihapon didto.

Usahay makaingon ko mawad-an man sad ta ug gana or di ba kaha mawad-an ta ug respeto sa ing aning klase nga obispo.

Anyway, chard, ako ra na reconcile nga bisan unsa ka dili perpekto sa simbahan ako stick gihapon kay ako nag too nga ang roman Catholic Church maoy magdala nato sa kamatouran ug kaluwasan. Maoy atong paglaum sa atong kalag.

SAYOP.! Walay simbahan nga nag dala nato sa kamatu-oran bro. labi na gyud sa kaluwasan. Dili sad ang simbahan ang pagla-um sa atong kalag. the ultimate source sa ato salvation is only JESUS CHRIST. wala gyud nag kulang ang iya teachings bro. The only reason y God has sent His son is, para ma luwas kita. kita unta dapat ang mamatay para sa ato mga sala, kita unta ang dapat i lansang sa cross but bcoz God loves us so, iya nalang bugtong anak na si Christo Hesus. But u know what? we need the grace of God to bliv what i say now. u may resist.pero this is the truth. now, if you bliv that the death of jesus Christ has the power to save you.then it will work for you, all you have to do is to repent from all of your sins bliving that Jesus christ paid all ur sins in the calvary through his death, Accept jesus christ as your only lord and savior then you will be save. ang imo gi sulti na HOPE is really in Christ Jesus. kung baga, "wala ka nang hahanapin pa. Jesus Christ is real, and he will work in your life if you will letHim come in to ur heart. remember, wala cya nagpabilin na patay He rosed again from the dead so that he can workk in your life and mine as well. so brod, s.n.m.p. just ponder on this, " No church that is perfect, Jesus Christ is perfect" so dont let the church guide you. let the holy spirit of Jesus guide you. " Read the BIBLE". Jesus Loves you bro.

**Sovabon** · 03-28-2006, 02:49 AM

Amen to that Bro Djames.

Salvation will be individually awarded by GOD to anyone who truly sincerely follows His 10 commandments during His very soon second coming. The Church which is composed of People could not guarantee you for Salvation. It is you, yourself accountable for what you have done unrighteous while you are still alive.

**shoeless_rebel** · 03-28-2006, 03:54 AM

i think this is true... i saw this printed on a shirt.

"there is always enough religion to incite war but not enough religion to promote tolerance"

**mannyamador** · 03-28-2006, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by Cardinal Bunal

What then is the GOOD NEWS of salvation in the Roman Catholic faith?

Try reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

That's something we all should do if we want to discuss real Catholic doctrine, instead of making up some so-called "catholic" doctrines, which are then used to prop up false "straw man" arguments. Such a practice is simply shameless lying.

**dacs** · 03-28-2006, 11:09 PM