RELIGION....(part 2)

[tarsus]

---

hahaha..imgaine theres no heaven..its easy if u try!

[niel_843]

manny,
support ko on what you are doing bro... just dont go down too much (you dont need to).

Why a lot of people hate Catholic doctrines too much? Why not be thankful about it? Otherwise this world will be full of different religions/sects like what is happening now! All these groups are claiming that they are correct! Now tell me, who among these people is telling the truth?

Is it not true that before Luther died, he said "I maybe a protestant, but I will die as a Catholic" ?

Why wee need to argue on simple truths? Is it simply because we want to prove others are wrong? Or is it simply because we cant accept the facts so clear that Catholics enjoy?

What is bad and unacceptable is that kids have grown up now, and since they think they know a little more than their parents, they now try to insult them with arrogance. They forget that even servants have to honor their kings!
It is so sad that after reading and research for sometime, pride and self confidence equipped these people to tell others that what they believe is wrong. Truth and facts can never be twisted. And these truth and facts that Catholics enjoy remain as it is forever! You may argue in a very dramatic way possible that you can.. but after that tedious and unrewarding work... truth and facts never changed.

In short... ang batig nawng.. bati jud na bisan unsaon pa..... gift man na sa ginoo in some other way.
kon ni gwapa gani...... na nakakwarta na sad si V. Belo. Â*

[7DMM]

dli gyud mag human kung relihiyon ang hisgutan

[tarsus]

What can you say about this article?
Religion: The Scourged of Society

If there is anything to be loathed, it is the sheer ignorance, prejudice, and stupidity exhibited in the above article. Only the most twisted and blinded mind can come up with such stereotyped lies.

she is just logical...huh!

[dacs]

Haaayy! Mana jud finals. Pwede na balik dinhi.

... (making sound with knuckles) ...

[soulshocked]

Preaching between the Living and the Dead
by Dr. Jack Hyles

Some of the people rose up against Moses and Aaron. They said that Moses and Aaron had taken too much upon themselves. They would take away from Aaron his embroidered vest, strip him of his mitre, remove the glittering stones that sparkled on his breast, silence the bells that jangled on the hem of his garment, blot out the embroidered pomegranates near the bells and destroy both him and his brother, Moses.

Suddenly the earth opened. An earthquake consumed these rebels. Then the Israelites blamed Moses and Aaron for the death. God was furious. He sent a plague that killed 14,700 people. (Numbers 16:44-50)

Moses said to Aaron, "Quick, take a censer. Put fire in it. Run to the people. Hold it high." Aaron did so, and as he did, the plague was stayed because he was standing between the living and the dead. Picture this old man, probably 100 years old, running up and down between the living and the dead and holding high his censer. This is exactly what the preacher does when he walks to his pulpit. He is God's man standing between the living and the dead. Oh, for a holy awe to grip us as we enter the sacred place, open the sacred Book and preach the sacred message!

Several years ago at the Bill Rice Ranch I was riding on horse- back to the morning cookout breakfast for which the Ranch is so famous. A young man rode up beside me and said, "Dr. Hyles, I'm a young preacher. I'm trying to decide what type preacher I should be-a Hell-fire and brimstone preacher or a deeper-lifer (whatever that is)." He said that he had talked to a deeper-lifer and gotten his advice; now he wanted my advice about the future of his ministry. Re said, "Could you counsel with me?"

I asked him, "Young man, is there a Hell?" He said, "Yes, there is, but would you counsel with me concerning what kind of preacher I ought to be?" I asked, "Is there a Hell?" "Yes," he said, "there is a Hell, but would you give me advice?" I asked, "Is there a Hell? Is there a Hell? Is there a Hell?" He said, "Dr. Hyles, aren't you going to counsel with me? The other preacher did." I asked, "Is there a Hell? Is there a Hell? Is there a Hell?" He rode off with a look of bewilderment on his face.

Several weeks passed. I was talking to Dr. Russell Anderson on the telephone. He said, "Dr. Hyles, I heard a young man preach the other day who said that he had talked with you recently at the Bill Rice Ranch." I said, "What was his name?" He said, "I don't know what his name was, but he sure preached a great message. I asked if he knew the title of the message. He said, "Yes, I do. The title was, 'Is There a Hell?'

It was the same young man. Re had made his choice. He had decided to stand between the living and the dead. I ask you that question: Is there a Hell? Is there a place where people are burning right now? Is there a place where they plead for one drop of water to cool their tongue for they are tormented by the flames? Is there a place where the worm dieth not and fire is not quenched? Is there a place where He shall say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels"? Is it true that the wicked shall be turned into Hell, and all the nations that forget God? Is there a place where those not found written in the Book of Life shall be cast into the Lake of Fire? Is the rich man still weeping and begging? Is it true that my unsaved father who died a drunkard's death is there? Is he burning alter all these years? Was I standing between the living and the dead when I talked to my father that Sunday afternoon, January 1, 1950, and pleaded with him to get saved? He told me that he would, but he was going to wait until the spring-but spring never came because he died and was buried on May 13 of that same year! Is it true that there is a Hell? Is it true that your loved ones without Christ are going to Hell? Is it true that the one who carried you in her womb who is unsaved is going to burn in Hell forever? Is it true that the only man you can ever call Daddy who is lost is going to Hell? Is your unsaved brother really going to a place of torment? Do those who hear you preach and reject the Gospel really die without Christ and go to Hell to burn forever? Is it true that those millions in Chicago within driving distance of my church who live without Christ and die without Christ will burn in Hell forever? If it isn't true, I'm going home! If it isn't true, I'm not walking to the pulpit again! If it isn't true, let's eat, drink and be merry! If it isn't true, let's call the missionaries home! If it isn't true, let's stop the buses from rolling! If it isn't true, let's make a planter out of the baptistery, close the church doors and quit the ministry! If it isn't true, let's make money! If it isn't true, let's live it up! If it isn't true, I've gotten my last lonely boarding pass on an airplane! If it isn't true, I've checked into my last motel room! If it isn't true, I've made my last all-night flight!

But if it is true, get the soul winning organized! If it is true, plead for God's power! If it is true, get the buses rolling! If it is true, let's set our preacher boys on fire! If it is true, let's fill the baptisteries every week! If it is true, let's quit trading the prayer closet for the voting booth! If it is true, let's quit turning bus captains into precinct captains! If it is true, let's keep our concern about the murder of the unborn, but be more concerned about the salvation of the born! If it is true, let's keep our burden for the right to life but have a bigger burden for the right to eternal life! If it is true, let's get back to the old-fashioned, window-rattling, shingle-pulling, barn- storming, Hell-fire and brimstone, Bible preaching; to Christ- honoring, soul-winning, Heaven-populating preaching! If it is true, let's dust off some of our old sermons on Hell and use them again!

If it is true, "Let's talk about Jesus, the King of kings is He, the Lord of lords supreme, throughout eternity; the great I Am, the Way, the Truth, the Life, the Door; let's talk about Jesus more and more!" If it is true, let's organize more soul-winning campaigns than voter-registration campaigns! If it is true, let's get back to soul winning, which is really the answer! Soul winning will sober more alcoholics than Alcoholics Anonymous. Soul winning will clean more slums than social programs. Soul winning will feed more hungry bodies than welfare. Soul winning will save America quicker than politics. Soul winning will do more for educating children than Head Start Programs. Soul winning will keep folks from burning in Hell!

If it is true, let's get back to talking about souls more than about offerings! If it is true, let's get back to talking about baptisms more than about registrations! If it is true, let's do church work more than school work! If it is true, let's make the Sunday school more important than the day school! If it is true, let's make the Sunday school teacher more important than the history teacher! If it is true, let's make the deacon more important than the school board! If it is true, let's make saving souls more important than basketball goals! If it is true, let's make soul-winning clubs more important than fellowship groups! If it is true, let's find the answer in the Father's house instead of in the White House!

All I ask is, "Dear preacher, is there a Hell?" Oh, for old- fashioned preaching about warning people about the wrath of God, the old-fashioned preaching that has a Hell that's hot and sin that's black and an eternity that's long.

Several years ago a man was dying. I was called to his bedside, and these were his dying words: 'Teacher, don't lie to me. I'm dying. Is there really a Heaven? Tell me. Is it true that there's a Heaven?"

I ask you this question: Is there really a Heaven? Is there "a land that is fairer than day, and by faith we can see it afar, for the Father waits over the way, to prepare us a dwelling place there"? Is it true that in my Father's house are many mansions? Is it true that He has gone to prepare a place for me'? Is it true that He will come again? Is it true that He will receive me unto Himself? Is it true that where He is, there will I be also? Is it true that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Is it true that John saw the Holy City, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband? Is it true that "when we've been there ten thousand years, bright shining as the sun, we've no less days to sing God's praise than when we first begun"?

Is it true that at 3:37 p.m. on September 30, 1984, my Mama really went to Heaven? Is it true that she is in Heaven now? Is it true that she is with her two little girls who preceded her in death many years before? Can she actually see Lorene, and is she with Hazel now? Is it true that her blind eyes can now see? Are her shoulders really straight? Is she beholding the face of the One she loved more than life? Is her face unwrinkled? Is her brow unfurrowed? Can I really sing, "Tell Mother I'll Be There"? Does she hear me preach? Can she walk? Can she run? Can she jump? Can she hear? Is she watching me now'? Was she wrong when she said on her death bed, "There's Lorene; there's Hazel; there's Uncle Harvey and Aunt Jimmie"? Is she really free of pain? Was she right as we talked and held hands and she said, "I'm going to Heaven, son," and we joined hands and sang, "0 they tell me of a home far beyond the sky; 0 they tell me of a home far away; 0 they tell me of a home where no storm clouds rise; 0 they tell me of an unclouded day"? Is there a Heaven? Is there a Hell? Will my mother really never hurt again? Is there a city really being built there with streets of gold and gates of pearl? Was I right when I stood beside my mother's bed and told her of Heaven? Was I right at the airport when I called her after she had died, temporarily forgetting that she was gone? The operator said, "Sir, no one answers," and I said, "Oh, I forgot, operator. Last Thursday she moved to a new address." Did she really move to a new address?

Is my good friend, Dr. John Rice, really with Jesus? Is Brother Lester Roloff beholding the face of his Saviour? Is Dr. Ford Porter talking to Him now? Is Dr. Bill Rice actually with Him?

I ask you: Is there a Hell? Is there a Heaven? Do we really stand between the living and dead? Is Jesus really the difference? Is the need of man the old rugged cross? Was Paul's message to the Philippian jailor really right when he said, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved"? Did God really so love "the world that He gave His only begotten Son"? Then what else matters?

Oh, men of God, it is true! There is a Heaven! There is a Hell! There is a Jesus! There is a virgin birth! There is a sinless life! There is a vicarious death! There is a bodily resurrection! There is an ascension! There is a coming back to the earth on the part of the Saviour! There is a rapture! There is a tribulation! There is a millennium! There is a New Jerusalem! It's real! There is a Hell! There is a Heaven! As we stand to preach, we do stand between the living and the dead! May God give us that awareness as we walk to the pulpit Sunday after Sunday, as we hold the censer of the Word of God high to stay the plague, as we stand between the living and the dead!

[mannyamador]

Purgatory
http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Two Judgments

When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment" (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).

Money, Money, Money

One argument anti-Catholics often use to attack purgatory is the idea that the Catholic Church makes money from promulgating the doctrine. Without purgatory, the claim asserts, the Church would go broke. Any number of anti-Catholic books claim the Church owes the majority of its wealth to this doctrine. But the numbers just don’t add up.

When a Catholic requests a memorial Mass for the dead -- that is, a Mass said for the benefit of someone in purgatory -- it is customary to give the parish priest a stipend, on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar’s offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14). In the United States, a stipend is commonly around five dollars; but the indigent do not have to pay anything. A few people, of course, freely offer more. This money goes to the parish priest, and priests are only allowed to receive one such stipend per day. No one gets rich on five dollars a day, and certainly not the Church, which does not receive the money anyway.

But look at what happens on a Sunday. There are often hundreds of people at Mass. In a crowded parish, there may be thousands. Many families and individuals deposit five dollars or more into the collection basket; others deposit less. A few give much more. A parish might have four or five or six Masses on a Sunday. The total from the Sunday collections far surpasses the paltry amount received from the memorial Masses.

A Catholic "Invention"?

Fundamentalists may be fond of saying the Catholic Church "invented" the doctrine of purgatory to make money, but they have difficulty saying just when. Most professional anti-Catholics -- the ones who make their living attacking "Romanism" -- seem to place the blame on Pope Gregory the Great, who reigned from A.D. 590–604.

But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.

Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it. (See Catholic Answers’ Fathers Know Best tract The Existence of Purgatory for quotations from these and other early Christian sources.)

Why No Protests?

Whenever a date is set for the "invention" of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?

A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?

They don’t exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that "true believers" in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.

It is no wonder, then, that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of the belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.

Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is not contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It proves there can be more than just heaven and hell.

"Purgatory Not in Scripture"

Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

Why Go To Purgatory?

Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

Fundamentalists claim, as an article in Jimmy Swaggart’s magazine, The Evangelist, put it, that "Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete. . . . It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man."

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

No Contradiction

The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).

Nothing Unclean

Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

[Sovabon]

RCC defines the word purgatory as purification. But the Protestants define it as NOTHING, DOES NOT EXIST & UNBIBLICAL!

[mannyamador]

RCC defines the word purgatory as purification. But the Protestants define it as NOTHING, DOES NOT EXIST & UNBIBLICAL!

Yes, protestants make many mistakes like that. But THEY are being unbiblical when they do so. For example, they claim the Bible is the sole and final authority, but that teaching is NOT found in the Bible. The Bible makes no such claim. See previous posts for more on this.

[dacs]

@ soulshocked:

Let us refer to the images (per page) you have posted before:

page 30 :

What was your reference material on your claim that there are two streams?

What recognition was attributed to that material?

page 31 :

What was the reference material you have in your claim that New Testament letter and Gospels were all gathered together in one important city : Antioch of Syria? Please specify where exactly was the collection into a single Bible done.

page 32 :

Where did you get the ‘important fact’ that everyone spoke Greek? Please quote some references.

On what work of H.G. Wells did you get the quotation?

The claim that Alexandrian ‘scholars’ are ‘stuck-up, selfish, jealous hypocrites who could never agree on anything’ needs further support. What other reference materials did you use?

Your cartoon says ‘exact copies’. Are you saying that Antiochian Christians are selling copies of the Holy Scriptures? Please show proofs of this act.

page 33 :

Please show proofs that, other than Alexandria, the rest of the Christian world had already agreed on what comprise the Bible.

page 35 :

Please show proofs that Origen did not like the Bible of the Antiochian Christians.

You have four claims against Origen (on what he did not believe). Please prove each of these.

Please provide also proofs that Origen is ‘a master at playing both sides’.

page 36 :

Please provide proofs that the Bible of the Antiochian Christians did not contain the Apocrypha and that the Bible of the Antiochian Christians is the same Bible used in all Christian world except those of Alexandria.

Please show proofs that Origen ‘inserted New Testament passages into the Old Testament passages.

What do you mean by ‘unbelieving’ when you describe Origen?

page 37 :

Provide proofs that Origen, in one way or another, implied that ‘Hebrew tongue is beneath’ him.

You seem to imply that the Septuagint is a work of Origen. Proofs please.

page 38 :

For what reason(s) was Origen kicked out?

Tortured for what?

How do you treat someone like a ‘saint’?

What is a real Christian? Are Christians in Antioch ‘real Christians’?

Provide proofs please that Origen did, in fact, made a false Bible and that he indeed claimed that his work is better than the Hebrew one.

page 31 :

Where is it in the Bible that says God planned, before He made the universe, to spread His Bible all over the world?

____________________________________


If you will provide me answers to my questions, I will give you a refutation. I hope you did not just ‘buy’ the whole idea of the tract without ‘probing everything’.