RELIGION....(part 2)

[mannyamador]

---

The Bible is the final authority.

Really now? Please show me even a single verse in the Bible that EXPLICITLY states that the Bible is the "final authority". Can't find one? I thought so. That;'s because not even the Bibkle itself makes the claim your making!

In other words, your claim is itself unscriptural. You would do well to heed the post of mosimos:

The Bible gives us warning on this score.

" In these epistles, there are certain things different to understand, which the unlearned and the unstable distort, just as they do the rest of the Scriptures also to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16

[dacs]

Sacraments?

No such thing. Only two ordinances, 1. Baptism (immersion) 2. Lord's Supper (Believer)

Are you a Baptist?Â* What kind are you? Baptist Church of Christ?Â* Campbellites or Disciples of Christ? Freewill Baptists? Primitive Baptists? United Baptists? Or are part of a new group?

Let me take a quick review of what you believe regarding baptism and the last supper.Â* In baptism, you reject infant baptism as contrary to the Scriptures, and accept immersion as the sole valid mode of baptism. To you, all children who die before the age of responsibility will nevertheless be saved. Baptism and the Eucharist, the only two sacraments (or ordinances as you call them) are not productive of grace, but are mere symbols. At least, most Baptsist believe that. Some don't.Â* Further, baptism (for you) does not bestow, but symbolizes, regeneration, which has already taken place.

In the 'ordinance' of last supper, you believe that Jesus Christ is not really present. The Lord's Supper merely sets forth the death of Christ as the sustaining power of the believer's life. It was instituted for the followers of Christ alone; hence Baptists, in theory, commonly admit to it only their own church members and exclude outsiders (closed communion). Open communion, however, has been practised extensively in England and is gaining ground today among American Baptists.

(Most of the information in the last two paragraph were taken from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02278a.htm)

Now, let me reveal to you what the early Christians believed:

Hippolytus (A.D. 215), The Apostolic Tradition 21:4

The children shall be baptized first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or someone else from their family.

Origen (A.D. 24, Commentaries on Romans 5:9

The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit.

St. Cyprian of Carthage (A.D. 253), Letters 58:2

But in respect of the case of the infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think that one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified with in the eighth day, we all thought very differently in our council. For in this course which you thought was to be taken, no one agreed; but we all rather judge that the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one born of man.

St. Gregory of Nazianz (A.D. 38, Oration on Holy Baptism 40:17

Have you an infant child? Do not let sin get any opportunity, but let him be sanctified from his childhood; from his very tenderest age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Fearest thou the Seal on account of the weakness of nature? O what a small-souled mother, and of how little faith!

St. John Chrysostom (A.D. 38, Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21

You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors . For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his (Christ's) members.

St. Augustine (A.D. 400), Baptism, 4:24:32

And if any one seek for divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the whole Church, and that not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by apostolical authority, still we can form a true conjecture of the value of the sacrament of baptism in the case of infants, from the parallel of circumcision, which was received by God's earlier people, and before receiving which Abraham was justified, as Cornelius also was enriched with the gift of the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.

And here are two webpages that record the writings of the early Christians regarding the Eucharist:

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/realp.htm
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/trans.htm

Just tell me if you need more.

Peace, bro.

[mannyamador]

As always, Dacs, you edify us all! God bless!

[fingolfin]

.........never ending story............................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............................................

[dacs]

Just now. From what source? And you claim to believe on the Bible. The Bible is the final authority.

Yet, the Bible did not, does not and will never claim to be the final authority. You are very, very unbiblical then.

And where did you get the sacraments? Margaret Thatcher? Mock! Poor souls.

Alas! We know already that you somehow mis-read the Bible. You do not have to prove that you mis-read history as well. Very, very poor soul.

[kyuusai]

The bible is the first ever published book and so its writings inside are authentic.

[dacs]

The bible is the first ever published book and so its writings inside are authentic.

Please elaborate. I don't get it.

I could interpret your words to mean that every published book is authentic. Absurd.

I could interpret your words to mean that every first ever published book by any new method is authentic. Again, absurd.

Lastly, I could interpret your words to mean that, for the reason that it was the first one published, it must be authentic. Forgive me but this still is not enough reason. In fact, if the publication make it authentic, I will not believe in the Bible. Thankfully, this is not the reason why the Bible is considered to be the Word of God and is an authentic (in so far as translations are correct) copy of the books held by Christians as part of the Sacred Scriptures.

[bfg9000]

The bible is the first ever published book and so its writings inside are authentic.

Non Sequitur. Just because it happened to be the book chosen by Gutenberg as the first to print on his printing press, it doesn't follow na authentic na ang writing inside.

[dacs]

Non Sequitur. Just because it happened to be the book chosen by Gutenberg as the first to print on his printing press, it doesn't follow na authentic na ang writing inside.

Non sequitur, indeed.

[soulshocked]

Oh no..not a new group. But long existed way before RCC existed....

A dose of history. Long before the RCC was born, "Baptists" existed. Though they were not called baptists then, but they had the same distinctive with today's independent Christians, standing for the verbal inspiration of the Bible, the Deity of Christ, His blood atonement, salvation by faith, New Testament Soul winning and the Premillennial Return of Christ; Opposing Modernism, Worldliness and Formalism. Who also believes the Bible is the sole authority (2 Peter 1:21), Autonomy of the local new testament church (Matthew 18:17), Priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:9), Two ordinances a. Communion (1 Cor. 11:23-25) b. Baptism (Acts 2:41), Individual soul liberty (Romans 14:5,12), Saved, baptized church membership (Acts 2:47), Two offices a. Pastor (Acts 20:2 b. Deacons (1 Timothy 3:13), Separation of church and state (Matthew 22:21). Constantine compromised Chrisitianity with paganism. And since then they termed these people as "Ana-baptists". Even persecuted people who don't believe on RCC. Research on the "Trail of Blood". No my brethren, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God and Word was with God." Long before man's existence, the Word of God existed. Despising the authority of the Bible means despising the authority of God. We all know and it is a fact that in the end we shall give an account to this body whether be it good or evil. Take heed on what you say because you shall give an account to that. It would be a very dark moment for you when you realize how blind you were indeed. The Bible (KJV 1611) indeed is the final authority, divide the Word of Truth correctly.

.....indeed this is a never ending story for people who refuse to accept the truth.. But the Truth shall stand and when the day of judgement comes....remember these texts....

May God grant that the controversy which this sermon has commenced may lead
to the advancement of his truth, and the enlightenment of many. — C. H. SPURGEON
.
It is a most fearful fact, that in no age since the Reformation has Popery made
such fearful strides in England as during the last few years. I had comfortably
believed that Popery was only feeding itself upon foreign subscriptions, upon a
few titled perverts, and imported monks and nuns. I dreamed that its progress
was not real. In fact, I have often smiled at the alarm of many of my brethren
at the progress of Popery. But, my dear friends, we have been mistaken,
grievously mistaken. It really is an alarming matter to see so many of our
countrymen going off to that superstition which as a nation we once rejected,
and which it was supposed we should never again receive. I have but to open
my eyes a little to foresee ROMANISM rampant everywhere in the future,
since its germs are spreading everywhere in the present. I see this coming up
everywhere — a belief in ceremony, a resting in ceremony, a veneration for alters,
fonts, and Churches — a veneration so profound that we must not venture upon
a remark, or straightway of sinners we are chief. Here is the essence and soul
of Popery, peeping up under the garb of a decent respect for sacred things.
.
It is impossible but that the Church of Rome must spread, when we who are
the watch-dogs of the fold are silent, and others are gently and smoothly
turfing the road, and making it as soft and smooth as possible, that converts
may travel down to the nethermost hell of Popery. The velvet has got into
our ministers' mouths of late, but we must unrobe ourselves of soft raiment,
and truth must be spoken, and nothing but truth; for of all lies which have
dragged millions down to hell, I look upon this as being one of the most
atrocious — that in a Protestant Church there should be found those who
swear that baptism saves the soul.
.
I come with much brevity, and I hope with much earnestness, to say that
FAITH IS THE INDISPENSABLE REQUISITE TO SALVATION.
This faith is the gift of God. It is the work of the Holy Spirit. My hearers,
if you would be saved, you must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Let me
urge you with all my heart to look nowhere but to Christ crucified for your
salvation. Oh! if you rest upon any ceremony, thought it be not baptism —
if you rest upon any other than Jesus Christ, you must perish, as surely as
this book is true.
.
In the Lord's Supper my faith is assisted by the outward and visible sign.
In the bread and in the wine I see no superstitious mystery, I see nothing but
bread and wine, but in that bread and wine I do see to my faith an assistant.
Through the sign my faith sees the thing signified. So in baptism there is no
mysterious efficacy in the baptistry or in the water. We attach no reverence
to the one or to the other, but we do see in the water and in the baptism such
an assistance as brings home to our faith most manifestly our being buried
with Christ, and our rising again in the newness of life with him. Explain
baptism thus, dear friends, and there is no fear of Popery rising out of it.
Explain it thus, and we cannot suppose any soul will be led to trust to it;
but it takes its proper place among the ordinances of God's house. To lift it up
in the other way, and say men are saved by it — ah! my friends, how much of
mischief that one falsehood has done and may do, eternity alone will disclose.

Would to God another George Fox would spring up in all his quaint simplicity
and rude honesty to rebuke the idol-worship of this age; to rail at their holy bricks
and mortar, holy lecterns, holy alters, holy surplices, right reverend fathers, and I
know not what. These things are not holy. God is holy; his truth is holy; holiness
belongs not to the carnal and the material, but to the spiritual. Oh that a trumpet-
tongue would cry out against the superstition of the age. I cannot, as George Fox
did, give up baptism and the Lord's Supper, but I would infinitely sooner do it,
counting it the smaller mistake of the two, than perpetrate and assist in perpetrating
the uplifting of baptism and the Lord's Supper out of their proper place.
O my beloved friends, the comrades of my struggles and witnessings,
cling to the salvation of faith, and abhor the salvation of priests.

If I am not mistaken, the day will come when we shall have to fight for a simple
spiritual religion far more than we do now. We have been cultivating friendship
with those who are either unscriptural in creed or else dishonest, who either
believe baptismal regeneration, or profess that they do, and swear before God
that they do when they do not. The time is come when there shall be no more
truce or parley between God's servants and time-servers. The time is come
when those who follow God must follow God, and those who try to trim and
dress themselves and find out a way which is pleasing to the flesh and gentle
to carnal desires, must go their way. A great winnowing time is coming to
God's saints, and we shall be clearer one of these days than than we now are
from union with those [the "Church of England"] who are upholding Popery,
under the pretence of teaching Protestantism.

We shall be clear, I say, of those who teach salvation by baptism, instead of
salvation by the blood of our blessed Master, Jesus Christ. O may the Lord
gird up your loins. Believe me, it is no trifle. It may be that on this ground
Armageddon shall be fought. Here shall come the great battle between Christ
and his saints on the one hand, and the world, the forms, and ceremonies, on
the other. If we are overcome here, there may be years of blood and persecution
and tossing to and fro between darkness and light; but if we are brave and bold,
and flinch not here, but stand to God's truth, the future of England may be
bright and glorious. O for a truly reformed Church in England, and a godly race
to maintain it! The world's future depends on it under God, for in proportion
as truth is marred at home, truth is maimed abroad.

Out of any system which teaches salvation by baptism must spring infidelility,
an infidelity which the false Church already seems willing to nourish and
foster beneath her wing. God save this favoured land from the brood of her
own established religion. Brethren, stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ
has made you free, and be not afraid of any sudden fear nor calamity when it
cometh, for he who trusteth to the Lord, mercy shall compass him about,
and he who is faithful to God and Christ shall hear it said at the last,
"Well done, good and faithful servant, enter thou into the joy of the Lord."
May the Lord bless this word for Christ's sake.


I do not intend to condemn you my brethren..for it is not my duty to condemn anyone. But I would like to condemn the error of such doctrine! Read Revelation 17:16, and see how terrible her end will be. The death of the system will come from those who gave it life: the powers of earth created thy system, and they will in due time destroy it.