Gays and Lesbians in Churches

[FK]

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wala man kalainan... in order to be a good leader, you have to lead by example.

If you are unable to control your feelings which the church says is not right, then how can you become a good leader/sheperd?

[Nonon]

@FK:

your right...i agree with you that "in order to be a good leader, you have to lead by example.".....

why is it "if you are unable to control your feelings, the church says it's not right"....

i think it still boils down to the issues of "morality"...

for the church...a good leader is "morally upright"...what is their definition of "morality"? what is their basis that a person is "immoral"? are they basing it according to the context in the bible?

i didn't hear them saying "Lot" is immoral after he slept with his daugthers!!??
i didn't hear them say "Abraham" is immoral after he slept with his wife's maid!!??
what did they say after "Tamar" was raped by her brother "Amnon"!!??
and many more.....

well...let's not go that far.....

for me it's still "PRO"....

because i still can't find enough reason to prohibit gays and lesbians....is it the "morality issue"??

[FK]

because i still can't find enough reason to prohibit gays and lesbians....is it the "morality issue"??

alangan na man sab dili i-apil ang morality, ila ipanigurado nga ang taw dili masaag nga sayop nga dalan. Onsaon nimo pagka epektibo nga leader kong imong dad-on imong taw ngadto sa sayop nga dalan.

Kong kuhaon nimo ang morality issue dili na simbahan ato gihisgutan ana.

[dacs]

@dacs:

do you know what the Spanish Friars did in order to maintain their power over us

they did not teach us their language...and instead they learned our language...in order for us not to undestand them and for them to understand us...so that they can prevent any upheavals....

and they didn't believe that "indios" are capable of learning....that is why "public schools" were established only during the american colonization...

You mean there was no Colegio de Nuestra Señora del Santisimo Rosario (forerunner of University of Santo Tomas) back in 1611? You mean there was no school in Cebu (forerunner of University of San Carlos) back in 1595 that were founded by Fr. Antonio Sedeno, Fr. Pedro Chirino, and Fr. Antonio Pereira (all of whom belong to the Society of Jesus)? That's weird because I can read them all in my history book.

Since you are talking about education, you may only be referring to the missionaries (i.e., the Augustinians, the Jesuits, the Dominicans, the Franciscans, etc.). The conquestadores - the Spanish army - are not there to educate the natives. The missionaries, on the other hand, need to understand first the language of the Filipinos before they can proceed with their mission - the preaching of the Good News. They went about their first task with gusto. After learning the language, their primary mission can now be acted upon. Building parochial schools will necessarily follows. How you not read that most sacristans (who are most often natives) know how to read and speak Latin? Blessed Pedro Calungsod is one of those sacristan.

Ever wondered why, in most rural town, the municipal building, the church and the parochial school are situated in close proximity? That is a legacy of the Spanish times.

Other examples, please.

[Nonon]

ok ra man kong dili lang sila mo practice sa ilahang pagka-homosexual.

after browsing through the topic....

i saw what you post the last time....

and it seems to me you had a change of heart...

"inconsistencies" makes the church weak...

for me...

i'm still "PRO"

[dacs]

how about this:

this happened in PERU....

Until 1588, natives were barred from being ordained or joining a monastic order. This led to great racial inequality within the church hierarchy.

Throughout the 1700s, church officials usually assigned top posts to Spanish-born whites. Secondary positions went to Creoles [whites born in the New World]. Mestizo [mixed European and Indian ancestry] priests usually received difficult parishes. At the bottom of the racial ladder stood Indian priests; though Indians made up more than 44 percent of the population, they were appointed to low prestige parishes.

As a result, by the early 1800s, most priests were foreigners.



is that detailed enough

Imagine a priest who gave up everything to serve Christ. Do you know of St. Francis of Assissi? He gave up everything and lived in poverty and through alms. Priests live to serve. Yet, you consider them like career professionals who most be given 'equal opportunity'. You picture them as men of this world. St. Francis Xavier never want to go where it is more convenient. As priests are still sinners, they can still do something that may be out of character. In every act they do that is sinful, they must answer to God. Padre Pio suffered because of some acts and judgements by Church officials. He know and believe that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth (1 Timothy 3:15); yet, the men in authority may still err with regards to discipline and practices.

Priests are never meant to serve for prestige. You have an awful way of looking at their vocation. Please try to understand who and what they are meant to be. Have you ever thought that native priests are better equipped to deal with a difficult parish in their own country?

[Nonon]

how about this:

this happened in PERU....

Until 1588, natives were barred from being ordained or joining a monastic order. This led to great racial inequality within the church hierarchy.

Throughout the 1700s, church officials usually assigned top posts to Spanish-born whites. Secondary positions went to Creoles [whites born in the New World]. Mestizo [mixed European and Indian ancestry] priests usually received difficult parishes. At the bottom of the racial ladder stood Indian priests; though Indians made up more than 44 percent of the population, they were appointed to low prestige parishes.

As a result, by the early 1800s, most priests were foreigners.



is that detailed enough

Imagine a priest who gave up everything to serve Christ. Do you know of St. Francis of Assissi? He gave up everything and lived in poverty and through alms. Priests live to serve. Yet, you consider them like career professionals who most be given 'equal opportunity'. You picture them as men of this world. St. Francis Xavier never want to go where it is more convenient. As priests are still sinners, they can still do something that may be out of character. In every act they do that is sinful, they must answer to God. Padre Pio suffered because of some acts and judgements by Church officials. He know and believe that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth (1 Timothy 3:15); yet, the men in authority may still err with regards to discipline and practices.

Priests are never meant to serve for prestige. You have an awful way of looking at their vocation. Please try to understand who and what they are meant to be. Have you ever thought that native priests are better equipped to deal with a difficult parish in their own country?

you were asking me to give you something specific from the church's history....i gave you one

now...you are saying that i'm a "priest hater"??...did i ever said something to discredit your character??...i think not

i find your words rather offending!!!

this is a forum...everyone is entitled to express his/her opinion freely...

if there is something you didn't like about what i'm posting...tell me in a respectable manner...don't implicate something which is not true...

you know lots of things...and i respect that....

but there is something you need to learn...

that is...

"RESPECT FOR ONE'S OPINION"

[Von!-x]

There are protestant denominations accepting gays and lesbians church leaders. I'd say they made a very big mistake. That may also be the reason why their churches are declining in membership.

An immoral person should not and cannot be a vessel for honor, unless he repents of his sins and turn away from his wicked ways. The sin of homosexuality is at par with drunkeness, murder, adultery, and others.

Many homosexuals no longer turn to their religions because they feel oppresed and/guilty. But then, God is able to transform a homosexual, into someone useful in the ministry. But he should not continue living the homosexual life.

[FK]

ok ra man kong dili lang sila mo practice sa ilahang pagka-homosexual.

after browsing through the topic....

i saw what you post the last time....

and it seems to me you had a change of heart...

"inconsistencies" makes the church weak...

for me...

i'm still "PRO"

hehehe... gi huna2x nako kong ang taw dili mag practice og homosexual act, dili jud siya homosexual. dili siya change of heart, kun dili pagdawat sa sayop.

[Nonon]

ok ra man kong dili lang sila mo practice sa ilahang pagka-homosexual.

after browsing through the topic....

i saw what you post the last time....

and it seems to me you had a change of heart...

"inconsistencies" makes the church weak...

for me...

i'm still "PRO"

hehehe... gi huna2x nako kong ang taw dili mag practice og homosexual act, dili jud siya homosexual. dili siya change of heart, kun dili pagdawat sa sayop.

hehehe...point taken...