The Church is responsible for over population in the Phils.

[gareb]

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based on this posting and report:

(over 4 million tons of rice was imported this year).

you flatly ignore that we cannot even pay more of these imports. fiscal crisis should ring a bell. 33% of the population living under the poverty line should say a lot about how the government is losing a grip on the situation.

please elaborate...what causes overpopulation?

read my previous post on this matter.

overpopulation in my humble opinion is simply a by-product/chain reaction of other problems that existing on a country.. we're talking about illiteracy, poverty and other socio-economic factors.. we can never "solely" held the church as the source of this problem..

for once, i agree with you. but the problem, being as complex and dynamic as it is, makes this very by-product the springboard of even more serious dilemmas in the future. a narrow grasp on things would make it seem as if overpopulation is the cause of the problem, when infact the problem is a vicious cycle spiralling towards oblivion.

poverty? does poverty drive the people to have more kids?

again, overpopulation cannot be attributed to a single factor, nor can it be attributed to something as simplistic as 'this came first and that came afterwards'. the problem is more complex that anyone thinks.

i hope a closer look at the history of todays countries deemed to be overpopulated, or those with high growth rates, or those who cannot sustain their current population, might reveal something that is common between all these countries. a lesson on political, cultural and economic history might reveal certain patterns that lead to the current stratification-- the bulgeoning third world countries versus the relatively stable (and even aging/declining) populations of the first world.

[kurdapya]

you flatly ignore that we cannot even pay more of these imports. fiscal crisis should ring a bell. 33% of the population living under the poverty line should say a lot about how the government is losing a grip on the situation.

you're missing the point...the country was not able to produce enough rice that's why we "imported"... gets mo?

read my previous post on this matter.

i have...but you have the tendency to use BIG WORDS. i'm sure you won't have a hard time re-phrasing it to much SIMPLER words so people can understand the point you are trying to get across, isn't that your purpose? so people understand what you're trying to say?

for once, i agree with you. but the problem, being as complex and dynamic as it is, makes this very by-product the springboard of even more serious dilemmas in the future. a narrow grasp on things would make it seem as if overpopulation is the cause of the problem, when infact the problem is a vicious cycle spiralling towards oblivion.

gibberish...what are you trying to say?

okay...tell me, how do you propose we face this problem. or do you think this is not a serious problem the country is facing?

people will continue to have *** and keep having children they cannot afford in the first place. contraception is the only way and GMA's government is not doing anything to help because she is scared to upset the catholic church. i hope you're not playing blind and deaf...your theories may sound grand pero way unod...sorry.

[Apo ni Barabas]

The issue is...

UNCONTROLLED POPULATION GROWTH

do you have any solutions to offer?

i say...legalize and provide CONTRACEPTION to the masses (esp to the poor)...all methods...

the Catholic Church is saying NO...only the ones that are ineffective, namely: rhythm, withdrawal...hmmmm...

withdrawal...sperm ends up on the sheets
condom...sperm ends up in the rubber

what's the diff?

buti pa si pader damunog may suckristan...bwahahaha!

[gareb]

you're missing the point...the country was not able to produce enough rice that's why we "imported"... gets mo?

that's the whole point. we need to import rice because we do not produce enough. we face a growing fiscal crisis because we cannot afford to pay more of these imports. in essence we cannot sustain the population. unsustainability leads to poverty. and where does overpopulation the fit in this picture? it fits right in the middle. read your malthus if you dare tackle the problem of overpopulation.

i have...but you have the tendency to use BIG WORDS.

oh, my apologies for having the wrong impression that such words are within the limits of your comprehension. i had the idea that since you posted that rather long response to the subject, you have had a firm grasp on the idea behind the multi-facetted causes of overpopulation. i did not realize that i have to go back to a-b-c's...

ok then...

overpopulation is a result of not just one, but many factors interacting in varying levels. it is a part of a system that continously consumes itself towards its own destruction. the cause and effect diagram here does not follow a line (hence not unilinear), but an intricate web (multi-lateral) of causes and effects... one touch anywhere and the whole web is affected. overpopulation is one of the many 'intersections' in this web.

there are basically three (3) strands that affect this intersection; political, economic and cultural factors. religion belongs underneath 'culture' hence it is but one of the factors, and not necessarily the predominant one. when you talk about mere 'poverty' or 'irresponsibility' as the cause of overpopulation, you neglect outright all other factors that allow the existence of overpopulation. it is all that and their own interactions between one another in varying intensities that produce the very conditions that allow overpopulation to crop up.

in shallow analysis, it may appear that it is merely overpopulation that causes poverty. with this in mind then one gets the idea that to eliminate poverty, one must eliminate overpopulation. and to do that is to get to its cause. this is an example of a unilinear cause-and-effect diagram.

the problem of overpopulation and poverty however is not as simple as this. the above cause-and-effect presentation falls apart because one of the causes of overpopulation is actually poverty. it's like a dog chasing its own tail. the above presentation defeats the very purpose of the thing that it intends to do which of course is to solve poverty by solving overpopulation. wrong analysis leads to wrong conclusions and wrong solutions.

unless we acknowledge that a combination of factors exist to produce the condition of overpopulation, and that these conditions and overpopulation affect each other multi-laterally, then our remedies to address only one factor is of no avail whatsoever.

how does poverty breed overpopulation, you ask? you answered it yourself. and it actually is not mere 'irresponsibility'.

yes, illiteracy...lack of education about family planning and contraceptives.

lack of education that is an effect of poverty; inside homes and 'poverty' exhibited by the 'fiscal crisis' that we are embroiled into... causing us tp cut back on sorely needed social services... the very same social services that teach people about contraceptives.

and of course you cannot just discount this as mere 'irresponsibility' in the side of the parents... i do not believe that their sexual activity differs much from those who have few children. what matters is that those who happen to have fewer children knew about family planning and contraceptives, while those who had many children do not. at the heat of passion one does not talk about responsibilities or all that. what matters is if those contaceptives are present or not.

the cultural aspect of overpopulation? the go-forth-and-multipy stand of the church.

and the political?

and GMA's government is not doing anything to help because she is scared to upset the catholic church.

... the slashing of budget for health.
... the reduction of the budget for education.
... the economic policies that government has set up that pushes the population further down the dust...

all of them somehow resemble each other... because all of them, like the silky strands of a web, feels the ripples when a part of the web is disturbed.

tell me if that is more of my gibberish, or you still see that as 'way unod' and i'd gladly reconstruct them again. :mrgreen:

[Apo ni Barabas]

wow, kadaghan sa iya'ng estorya...bright-ta jud ani'ng gareb oi...

taympa...poverty ang cause sa overpopulation? hala kakuyaw gud diay diha's pilipinas...kung pobre diay ta magsige na lang diay ta'g panganak ani...dili jud kapugngan ang biga bahalag way ikapaka-on...cge lang lamiiiiii man...

ngano'ng nahimo man sa administrasyon ni Marcos, Ramos og Erap...Ramos especially kay protestante man, noh? di mahadlok ni cardinal sin? bisa'g si Flavier gi denounce ug atake na'g maayo sa simbahan...

ang thread "church and overpopulation"...maayo baya imong point pero lagpas lang...

: so, unsa imo'ng solusyon nga i-rekomendar? kung ang katoliko'ng simbahan mo-uyon sa tana'ng kontraseptibo...makatabang kaha ani'ng problemaha? :

[gareb]

Apo ni Barabas:

mao lagi na siya'y problema. dili lang poverty ang cause sa overpopulation. combination sa factors.

wla man say nahimo si FVR ug si marcos regarding the population... basically because wla silay gihimo para matang-tang ang combination sa factors nga maoy hinungdan sa overpopulation...

makatabang ang pag-uyon sa contraceptives, pero isa lang ni ka parte sa solusyon. kung kani lang, walay pulos. dapat multi-directional ang apporach sa problema, dili lang limitado sa usa ka direksyon.

[Apo ni Barabas]

naa baya silay nahimo, dong gareb. kung hinay ang population growth maka catch up tas atong ekonomiya...heck wa man gani trabaho ikahatag ang gobyerno's mga tawo...unsa na lay ibuhi kung ang katawhan dili mag matngon ug mag sige'g panganak...di ba?

[Apo ni Barabas]

like i said, sakto man ka gareb...naa man kay good points...pero kana'ng ubang factors imong gihatag dili man gyud nay true cause sa overpopulation...ang tinuod gyud nga cause...kay sige tag panganak unya way ikapakaon...kuwang na gud ang bugas nga gi produce sa ato'ng nasud ron mao nang namalit na lang tas uban...di ba?

imo bang gi basa tong report ni kurdaps? naa sad biya'y maayo'ng nga points dong gareb...na basaha...kung ma lessen nato ang population growth with the help and support sa church...dako gyud ug tabang sa atong nasud...

************************************************** ********

"In the past 30 years the Philippines has averaged 3.1% annual GDP growth and a population growth of 2.5%. Which means almost no improvement for the Filipino over that 30 years. This is about half the rate achieved by other nations in Asia.

The church needs to re-appraise its position on population too. At its present rate of population growth (2.4%), and the economy (4–5%) it will take 30 years for the Philippines to catch up to where Thailand is today. Some 25 years ago it was slightly ahead of Thailand. Go back 40 years and it was second to Japan. Soon it will be behind Vietnam (which is growing at 7 - 8%).

Is this what Filipinos want?

Mr. James Fallows was right when he said this is a damaged culture. It is a selfish culture where too many think only of themselves (and family) and care little for others, or the nation as a whole.

And, as the numbers show, it is a failing economy that needs major change if it is to progress meaningfully. I cannot emphasize too strongly that without fundamental change in these 10 areas (and greater church support), and the cultural change to go with it, the Philippines will be the basket case of Asia one generation from now. And this change won’t occur if the culture, the attitude (of the leaders) doesn’t change."

[gareb]

Apo ni Barabas:

true nga minghinay ang population growth, from 3% during the 1960's to 2.6% during the 1980's and 2.3% during the 1990's... a result of the intensive campaigns to curb the rapid growth of population...

problema lang kay even with a decreasing population growth rate (but still an increasing population), wala lang gihapoy changes sa economy. some even say nag ming samot pa man gani daw ka ut-ot ang mga tawo karon... with the enormous foreign debt and all...

wala lang gihapoy visible nga changes in terms of economy nga nakita despite sa decrease sa population growth rate. ug dili jud siya makontrolar ug taman ang population kung dili ma-address ang problema sa causes ani nga combination sa factors.

dili man gud nag depend lang ang viability sa economy sa isa ka passive nga disposition nga nagdepende lang ka sa unsay situation sa mga tawo. economic policies are supposed to be affirmative actions that make or break societies.

again, pwede nga naay effect ang mismo lang nga kampanya para sa contraceptives ug family planning, pero kung kani lang, bale wala lang gihapon. mudako gihapon population, bisan nabawasan na gamay iyahang momentum, kay isa ra man siya kabuok solusyon imbes daghan nga dungan. daghan man ug factors nga nag cause sa overpopulation. dapat i address sila dungan para makakita ta ug igo ug tino nga resulta.

[Apo ni Barabas]

kung ma minimize ang population growth karon dayon, it will still take years for it to catch up kung ang economic growth dili mo paspas, di ba?

so...unsa may solution so we can gain CONTROLLED POPULATION GROWTH.

dili ka suporta sa contraception? i don't really know any other way to control population growth...other than contraception and this 2-child policy thingy?

and yes, i'm talking about population growth...not economy nor poverty...