What's wrong with HB 3773? A LOT!!! (New Online Petitions added!)

[Deus]

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Support what? The mindless scapegoat excuse? First you'd have to prove it exists. At the rate you're going, I'll be dead and buried before you do so.

And irrelevant, because the world will continue. Do you or do you not?

But that still doesn't change the truth. You STILL cannot prove the existence of overpopulation with that.

I posted a fairly understandable response to nindotkanon about that very thing. Please look it up, or ignore it.

Somehow equating the advocacy of basic good governance with advocating communism just sounds really desperate on your part. Pretending not to see the difference just doesn't improve your credibility.

Why not? Communism is a perfect system designed to not let people be hungry, ever in need or suffer injustice. Everyone gets an equitable share of all, and in it people should be satisfied, content and happy. Expecting such perfection in governance doesn't strike me as any different at all.

[mannyamador]

Oh, you missed the "intensify already existing conditions of poverty" part. There is no causal relationship between fire and oxygen either, but oxygen will intensify fire.

That IS a causal relationship. The introduction of oxygen CAUSES the continued chemical reaction (combustion). Shut it off and see the reaction stop. Science 101.

Look, it's obvious you're just avoiding the issue. The bottom line is that you CAN'T prove your claim.

So, a population doesnt consume resources then?

So a dense population doesn't PRODUCE, CREATE MASS MARKETS, ALLOW EFFICIENT DISTRIBUTION, ETC? You're making it an either/or thing now. But the fact remains that you still have not demonstrated that "overpopulation" exists (as defined).

But I'm not talking about the world

Well, I AM. Depopulation is a global phenomenon that is increasing. This thread is NO LONGER ONLY ABOUT HB 3773. It is now the catch-all prolife/population issues thread. That has been forced on me by circumstances. And so these posts are valid and eye-opening because depopulation is also a possibility here considering that our Total Fertility Rate has been dropping like a rock. In Manila, TFR is already BELOW repalcement level (you DID know that, didn't you?).

So, where is this rice going?

Pilfered resale doesn't go on record, which is why the government sees "shortage". But more importantly a whole lot of it ROTS, partly to keep localized prices up, partly because the pilferers aren't able to transport it (as if they care because they can always steal more), partly because some local NFA idiots don't do their job well (some are just ghost empl;oyees). That doesn't go into the market. Population has nothing to do with it.

But I never specified the term "shortage", have I?

So now you're backtracking. You agreed with the scenario of nindotkanon, which clearly imply shortage. And then you talk of "balance", which implies shortage when there is imbalance. And then you talk of possible imbalance scenariso as if they are real, so that too implies shortage. Such stupidity cannot remain unnoticed.

Oversimplifying like expecting to solve completely different problems (like overpopulation and depopulation) the same way?

And now you're putting words in someone else's mouth. I guess that's YOU'RE idea of intellectual honesty!

Which is not my claim. You DO wish to adress my claim right, and not somebody else'?

Gee, you must think you're privileged and the only one reading this thread.

[mannyamador]

And irrelevant, because the world will continue. Do you or do you not?

And apparently even then you STILL won't be able to prove that it is even a realistic scenario! Guess I won't hold my breath!

I posted a fairly understandable response to nindotkanon about that very thing. Please look it up, or ignore it.

More flawed arguments? You have to demonstrate the causal relationship. You FAILED. Miserably. What's the matter, can't remember? I figured you'd try to squirm your way out if this one!

Why not? Communism is a perfect system designed to not let people be hungry, ever in need or suffer injustice. Everyone gets an equitable share of all, and in it people should be satisfied, content and happy. Expecting such perfection in governance doesn't strike me as any different at all.

And that lack of perceptioin explains why you can't figure out the issue. Keep it up though. You're just making this all soooo easy for me. :mrgreen:

Why would I? Do I want innocent babies being killed?

It's called PRIDE. It causes people to say dumb things. Please do not continue to insist on being one of its victims.

[Deus]

That IS a causal relationship. The introduction of oxygen CAUSES the continued chemical reaction (combustion). Shut it off and see the reaction stop. Science 101.

Nope, oxygen is a contributing factor to fire. One of four. Oxygen does not cause fire because if it did, inhaling it would make you burst into flames. You DID pass science 101, right?

So a dense population doesn't PRODUCE, CREATE MASS MARKETS, ALLOW EFFICIENT DISTRIBUTION, ETC? You're making it an either/or thing now.

And I agree with all it's benefits - I said so myself that the size of a population diddn't matter just as long as you had the resources to support them in a previous post, diddn't I? That would mean being inclusive of the benefits of population growth. The key here was resources, whether available resources were sufficient, no matter how many people there were.

It seems to me your the one trying to desperately shoehorn me into an eithor/or situation. That's just sad.

Well, I AM. Depopulation is a global phenomenon that is increasing. This thread is NO LONGER ONLY ABOUT HB 3773. It is now the catch-all prolife/population issues thread. That has been forced on me by circumstances.

Yes, it is increasing in developed countries, while overpopulation is increasing in non developed countries. Since we happen to be one of the latter, it would't be quite as stupid if you focused on what is happening over here than over there.

And so these posts are valid and eye-opening because depopulation is also a possibility here considering that our Total Fertility Rate has been dropping like a rock.In Manila, TFR is already BELOW repalcement level (you DID know that, didn't you?)

Dropping like a rock? Ha! Now, show me the census that was taken. And it better be good, cause that would mean the Official Philippine Goverment Census was lying.

And oh, about Manila. Below replacement level of an already bloated population? Is Manila in danger of extinction? Are there too few of them? I know! We must preserve two of them for captive breeding programs!

Pilfered resale doesn't go on record, which is why the government sees "shortage". But more importantly a whole lot of it ROTS, partly to keep localized prices up, partly because the pilferers aren't able to transport it (as if they care because they can always steal more), partly because some local NFA idiots don't do their job well (some are just ghost empl;oyees). That doesn't go into the market. Population has nothing to do with it.

So, it just goes "somewhere"? Where are these huge storehouses? Oh, I have no doubt some of it does rot. But to directly affect the total rice production of an entire country, these warehouses must be HUGE! Or else controlled by a giant rice smuggling cartel that controls overything. Mice can't simply empty a barn after all. I bet their controlled by a congressman, like in the movies.

So now you're backtracking. You agreed with the scenario of nindotkanon, which clearly imply shortage. And then you talk of "balance", which implies shortage when there is imbalance. And then you talk of possible imbalance scenariso as if they are real, so that too implies shortage. Such stupidity cannot remain unnoticed.

No, I agreed with part of a scenario of nindotkanon, and I dissagreed with him on other parts. Diddn't you notice? Implies? Aren't you putting words into my mouth? Or better yet, do you actually think I said something and meant something else? Do you read minds now? Available resources must be able to support a population, that's all I said. Again, do you dissagree?

And now you're putting words in someone else's mouth. I guess that's YOU'RE idea of intellectual honesty!

You show examples of a completely different situation and then expect it's solution to apply to another completely different situation. You show examples of the first world needing more people, and so expect the third world to follow also. Isn't that the posterboy for simplification?

Which is not my claim. You DO wish to adress my claim right, and not somebody else'?

Gee, you must think you're privileged and the only one reading this thread.

Not the people reading this thread. Paul Ehrlich and/or people who predict doomsday for the entire earth. I'm not one of them, and so responding to my claims as if you were responding to theirs was making you look rather stupid.

[Deus]

More flawed arguments? You have to demonstrate the causal relationship. You FAILED. Miserably. What's the matter, can't remember? I figured you'd try to squirm your way out if this one!

I notice you keep saying "CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP!" and "Look, your wrong!" without actually adressing the points of the opponent's argument. Tell me which parts of my post to nindotkanon failed. Miserably. Point by point, with explanations. Don't forget to add your analysis of the relationship between the available markets and the people/resources too like I did. Or will you keep yelling "FAILED!" yet again?

And that lack of perceptioin explains why you can't figure out the issue. Keep it up though. You're just making this all soooo easy for me.

So? What's your rebuttal? You can't just expect to say "you're wrong!" and leave it at that forever, can you? Cause if you are, I'll have to assume you've run out of things to say.

It's called PRIDE. It causes people to say dumb things. Please do not continue to insist on being one of its victims.

I have nothing to say about the irony of this statement.

[mannyamador]

Nope, oxygen is a contributing factor to fire. One of four. Oxygen does not cause fire because if it did, inhaling it would make you burst into flames. You DID pass science 101, right?

Wrong again. A NECESSARY contributing factor is a CAUSE. Guess Science 101 wasn't the only thing you didn't pass. Just kidding. That will be the last sarcastic remark from me in this post.

And I agree with all it's benefits - I said so myself that the size of a population diddn't matter just as long as you had the resources to support them in a previous post, diddn't I? That would mean being inclusive of the benefits of population growth. The key here was resources, whether available resources were sufficient, no matter how many people there were.

Then what are we even arguing about?

The point to remember is that "overpopulation" is NOT an imbalance between resources and population . The term for that is SHORTAGE. Overpopulation refers to a specific CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP. So if you think the Philippines is overpopulated, then you MUST prove this causal relationship exists.

On the other hand, if all you are saying is that there is just an imbalance (aka SHORTAGE), then that is NOT overpopulation, because there can be many other causes for the shortage (imbalance). In which case, we aren't even talking about the same things

Yes, it is increasing in developed countries, while overpopulation is increasing in non developed countries. Since we happen to be one of the latter, it would't be quite as stupid if you focused on what is happening over here than over there.

It would be far more stupid to IGNORE what is happening there since we now face being force-fed similar population control measures. The results are already indicating the beginning of depopulation. A crashing TFR from 7 to above 2 in just 40 years! Recent population growth has dropped to record lows. Population ageing is another by-product that we must avoid, because our economic system is totally unprepared to deal with it.

Dropping like a rock? Ha! Now, show me the census that was taken. And it better be good, cause that would mean the Official Philippine Goverment Census was lying.

Ah well, I knew you would make this mistake. You just asked to get buried with data that shows how wrong you are. I didn't start this thread unprepared.

Take note the precipitous drop from a TFR of 7 to above 2 in only 40 years.

[img width=430 height=311]http://forums.prolife.org.ph/yabbse/index.php?PHPSESSID=ea48e592a4a18d8d9ac4ebfc3ef79b 66&action=dlattach;topic=150.0;id=29;image[/img]

Also...

Geneva Foundation for Medical Education and Research
Specific situation in the Philippines
Florante P. Gonzaga
Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, College of Medicine, University of the Philippines, Manila, Philippines
http://www.gfmer.ch/Books/bookmp/205.htm

Table I.3.1: Projected total fertility rates under varying assumptions 1990–2040
[img width=755 height=800]http://www.gfmer.ch/Books/bookmp/205.ht86.jpg[/img]

[img width=746 height=1205]http://www.gfmer.ch/Books/bookmp/205.ht87.jpg[/img]

Also...

ADB: Key Indicators 2002
ADB document shows decline of Total Fertility Rate from 4.4 in 1990 to 3.4 in 2000
(but the UN recomputed even much lower later!).

The Philippines' total fertility rate dropped from 4.4 births per woman to 3.4 births per woman between
1990 and 2000 with the infant mortality rate declining from 45 per 1,000 live births to 30 per 1,000 live
births for the same 10-year period. On this basis, the Philippines is expected to experience an increase in
population of 50 million people between 2000 and 2050.

The bonus is that the Philippines, along with Malaysia and Indonesia, may experience a demographic
dividend, when growth of the working age population peaks compared to the number of economic
dependents, the report adds. This is a challenge for the government to foster a vibrant and innovative
economy that can successfully employ the growing labor force. The ability of the government to create
productive opportunities will largely determine whether future millions live in poverty or not.

A looming problem in the future is population ageing, or when the number of people aged 65 and over
is growing more rapidly than the working-age population. Population ageing is the phase after the
demographic dividend. If the Philippines is unable to cash in on its demographic dividend, it could experience
pressure on its social insurance schemes. While there is a family support system in the Philippines, population
ageing will place enormous pressure on traditional means of intergenerational support. Creating new
structures and institutions to replace or support traditional systems is vital, the report says.

So, it just goes "somewhere"? Where are these huge storehouses? Oh, I have no doubt some of it does rot. But to directly affect the total rice production of an entire country, these warehouses must be HUGE! Or else controlled by a giant rice smuggling cartel that controls overything.

That last one is more real than you think. Huge amounts of rice are resold, which is why many local markets are overlfowing with it despite the fact that we're supposed to be importing just enough for our needs. But, aside from that millions of tons ROTS! We're not talking a few sacks here and there. We're talking of entire storehouses that go to waste. You don't need mice to eat them. They just ROT. Rice has a way of doing that after it sits (and especially when it gets wet) for a few months.

No, I agreed with part of a scenario of nindotkanon, and I dissagreed with him on other parts.

His assertion was simple (being simple-minded as he is). That the Philippines is overpopulated and, by implication, that our population outstrips our resources and production. Didn't you agree with that?

Available resources must be able to support a population, that's all I said. Again, do you dissagree?

So is this the part of nindotkanon's assertions that you agreed with? if that's ALL you were saying, then how could ou have agreed with him? He didn't say that. Well? You're contradicting yourself.

You show examples of the first world needing more people, and so expect the third world to follow also. Isn't that the posterboy for simplification?

Sounds more like mindlessness or, quite likely, a straw man argument. The fact remains that the Third World is being force-fed discredited population theories and programs that have led to demographic disaster in the First World. And our lawmakers are like lemmings ready to fall ofthe same cliff. Now THAT is oversimplification!

Not the people reading this thread. Paul Ehrlich and/or people who predict doomsday for the entire earth. I'm not one of them, and so responding to my claims as if you were responding to theirs was making you look rather stupid.

It would be truly stupid for anyone to think even for a minute that the information posted about Japan and Germany were responses to your flawed arguments. You didn't think that now, did you? I think I've already stated several times that this thread covers far more than your issues.

[mannyamador]

I notice you keep saying "CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP!" and "Look, your wrong!" without actually adressing the points of the opponent's argument.

I noticed that you HAVE NOT DEMONSTRATED THE CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP!

Try doing that first! Show me that the effects of "overpopulation", as defined in Merriam-Webster, are actually caused by high population density and NOT BY ANY OTHER FACTORS. I've been waiting for that for quite a while. You just haven't done it. Worse, you keep making excuses NOT to do it,

[mannyamador]

Pope lauds Italian pro-lifers
http://cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=42261

Vatican, Feb. 06 (CWNews.com) - At his Sunday Angelus audience on February 5, Pope Benedict XVI
saluted Italian pro-life activists, and congratulated the Italian bishops for their involvement in public
issues relating to the defense of human dignity.

The Pope praised the Movement for Life for its "defense and promotion of human life, especially
when it is found in difficult conditions." He urged all Italians to read and reflect on a pro-life message
released by the Italian bishops' conference.

"All human life, in itself, is worthy of and deserves always to be defended and promoted," the Pope
continued. That message must be emphasized repeatedly, he said, in light of the "widespread
hedonism of so-called welfare societies," which denigrate the value of human life when it is weak
and defenseless.

Pope Benedict recalled that his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, is remembered especially for his
outspoken defense of human life, and in particular for his landmark 1995 encyclical, Evangelium Vitae.

[Deus]

Wrong again. A NECESSARY contributing factor is a CAUSE. Guess Science 101 wasn't the only thing you didn't pass. Just kidding. That will be the last sarcastic remark from me in this post.

A necessary contributing factor? Did you just ackowlege the term "contributing factor"? What's more, did you just acknowlege that contributing factors are in fact a CAUSE? You just stuck your foot in your mouth there.

On the other hand, if all you are saying is that there is just an imbalance (aka SHORTAGE), then that is NOT overpopulation, because there can be many other causes for the shortage (imbalance). In which case, we aren't even talking about the same things

And again, I will say that for the purpouses of my argument, the resources remain constant (untill subsequent investment). Ergo, there will be no "shortage" of a resource if the means to consume a resource will not increase. Do people consume resources? Come now, tell me.

It would be far more stupid to IGNORE what is happening there since we now face being force-fed similar population control measures. The results are already indicating the beginning of depopulation. A crashing TFR from 7 to above 2 in just 40 years! Recent population growth has dropped to record lows. Population ageing is another by-product that we must avoid, because our economic system is totally unprepared to deal with it.

Which is their problem, not ours. Should we decide to use similar population control methods, I have no doubt our population will decrease. But then, a "crashing TFR in just 40 years!" wouldn't strike me as especially damaging if you already had a bloated population to begin with.

Geneva Foundation for Medical Education and Research
Specific situation in the Philippines...

Projected fertility rates? That's "being prepared"? Let's make a simple logic experiment. There is one population with ten people, and one population with a hundred. The group with ten people loves babies, and so decides to each have two babies a year (well, every 18 months). The group with a hundred people on the other hand doesn't want any babies, and so only twenty people decide to have one baby each year. The first group of course has a fertility rate of 200%, while the second only 24%. So why the hell do they still both rise by 20?

ADB: Key Indicators 2002
ADB document shows decline of Total Fertility Rate from 4.4 in 1990 to 3.4 in 2000
(but the UN recomputed even much lower later!).

So why does the official census data show old people accounting for only 3.83 percent? Young people (0-14) at 37.01 percent? Why is the median age about 22.27 years (which makes them about about sixty in forty years, still within what is considered an economically active age)? Is the official government data lying? The article is simply a warning, telling us not to go too far. It's far from doomsday.

That last one is more real than you think. Huge amounts of rice are resold, which is why many local markets are overlfowing with it despite the fact that we're supposed to be importing just enough for our needs. But, aside from that millions of tons ROTS! We're not talking a few sacks here and there. We're talking of entire storehouses that go to waste. You don't need mice to eat them. They just ROT. Rice has a way of doing that after it sits (and especially when it gets wet) for a few months.

So now markets are overflowing? I thought they were being kept to artificially hold up prices? Which is it?

I meant thieves were mice, unless you hold them in high enough regard to affect the production of an entire country. A few trucks won't make a difference, even a few hundred. These aren't fields here, even entire warehouses. These are huge national stocks (enough to feed 80 million people, many times over!) which thieves somehow manage to deplete. Where does it all go, or subsequently, where is it left to rot?

His assertion was simple (being simple-minded as he is). That the Philippines is overpopulated and, by implication, that our population outstrips our resources and production. Didn't you agree with that?

Why yes I did (with the clarification of replacing the word "outstrips" with the word "outpaces"), and I dissagreed with him on other things. So you claim I diddn't dissagree with him on other things?

So is this the part of nindotkanon's assertions that you agreed with? if that's ALL you were saying, then how could ou have agreed with him? He didn't say that. Well? You're contradicting yourself.

Deliberately misrepresenting statements now? Cause well, I thought I made it abundantly clear that I agreed on some of his points and dissagreed with him on other things. I think you'll find me pretty consistent throughout. That is ALL I said, which managed to coincide with some of his points and conflict with some of his other's. Like a line intersecting with an arc. They may intersect, but in no way are they parallel. Really, these pathetic attempts of yours trying to pin me on anything is starting to make you look pointlessly desperate.

Sounds more like mindlessness or, quite likely, a straw man argument. The fact remains that the Third World is being force-fed discredited population theories and programs that have led to demographic disaster in the First World. And our lawmakers are like lemmings ready to fall ofthe same cliff. Now THAT is oversimplification!

Sure it's mindlessness, if followed stupidly and without question. Chemotherapy can kill you or cure you depending on severity and dosage. Similarly, any cure for a disease can backfire if taken too far. Overpopulation is a disease and population control is the cure. Take too much of it and you would die. But then, if you diddn't take the treatment you'd die anyway.

It would be truly stupid for anyone to think even for a minute that the information posted about Japan and Germany were responses to your flawed arguments. You didn't think that now, did you? I think I've already stated several times that this thread covers far more than your issues.

Pardon? "Paul Ehrlich and/or people who predict doomsday" were in the content of a previous post of yours, were they not? A majority of said post being addressed to me? How was I supposed to take it?

What issues? If you mean depopulation in developed countries, then I vehemently and wholeheartedly agree. But should you use these examples to disprove overpopulation in third world countries then I will call you in on it. You see something wrong and you fix it. Why should it matter if it were adressed to me.

[Deus]

I noticed that you HAVE NOT DEMONSTRATED THE CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP!

Try doing that first! Show me that the effects of "overpopulation", as defined in Merriam-Webster, are actually caused by high population density and NOT BY ANY OTHER FACTORS. I've been waiting for that for quite a while. You just haven't done it. Worse, you keep making excuses NOT to do it,

Riiight. Really, just take apart my post to nindotkanon. It would go a long way to disprove me.