RELIGION....(part 2)

[mannyamador]

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religion is flawed because man itself is flawed..thus a debate on religion is always destined to be flawed.

If we follow that logic, then a debate on ANYTHING is flawed, is it not?

[mannyamador]

Dare we nullify his sacrifice on the cross by choosing to suffer voluntarily for the souls of those who have recently passed away?

That's not what the Bible says. It clearly states that we should pray for one another, and also that there is such a thing as puirgatory, and that we can help those who have passed away (unless of course you bastardize the Bible by removing the verses that srefer to it, which is what Martin Luther did).

Again, you are engaging in a personal misinterpretation of Scripture. Christ gives forgiveness, but the Bible clearly states that we must still ATONE. Forgiveness and atonement are NOT the same, but you gloss over that fact. That is a very sinful deception on your part.

[Sovabon]

@Manny: Can you please discuss here what is really the Purgatory is? The Bible verses that will trully support your claims. Thanks.

[Cardinal Bunal]

Macabees doesn't support purgatory. It only proves they believe in life after death..... you can prove that the exclusion of the Deuterocanonicals OBJECTIVELY is a heresy and a sacrilege if you use the equi-distant skip gap. ;-b Seriously, those books aren't WORD per se.... are they?

1 Corinthians 3: 15 clearly speaks about BUILDING UP God's church or Spiritual temple (in context of Eph. 2: 19 - 22 and see also 1 Pet. 2: 4 - 8 ) it is also evident that there will be those who backslide hence a ROCK (Matt. 16: 18 ) or building BLOCK or part of the building being burned up. Peter was the first living stone. Living stones continue to build up his temple.

Now I've already proven my point on Col. 1: 24, by citing the verse above it... and of course Mark 8: 34 - 37 but as Sovabon said perhaps you have points to make in defense of purgatory.

Forgiveness and atonement are NOT the same, but you gloss over that fact. That is a very sinful deception on your part.

Nooooo! You are nullifying the Word of God! ;-b

See Heb. 9: 25 - 27, 10: 18 - Paul had to write to these people because they kept on with the sacrifices that were rendered obsolete, and is if denying the all sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross, the RCC under the supervision of deceiving spirits (see 1 Tim. 4: 1 - 4 ) has brought back NOT just the implications that we are NOT saved, but outright abominable and mendacious doctrinals! They weren't apostolic tradition...... Not everything is chronicled in the Scriptures (Jn 21: 15 ) but God doesn't leave us in darkness about our salvation (1 Jn 5: 13 ) and how to do "Church", he left instructions. (Isaiah 34: 16 NAB) Some hints of THOSE apostolic traditions are in the epistles written for Corinth, Ephesus, and the rest. Heb. 10: 25 hints at what genuine fellowship in the "primitive church" (as the RCC calls it) - looks like.

[dacs]

Here are a number of articles which will explain to you the doctrine of purgatory.Â* Most of these are done by Protestant converts to the Catholic Church.Â* A number of the authors are former pastors; so, they have been in mind-frame of a Protestant.Â* I hope you do read these:

HOW TO EXPLAIN PURGATORY TO PROTESTANTS
by James Akin

PURGATORY
by James Akin

PURGATORY
by Paul Flanagan and Robert Schihl

BIBLICAL OVERVIEW OF PENANCE, PURGATORY & INDULGENCES
by Dave Armstrong

Dialogue on Different Aspects of Purgatory and its Relation to Baptism and Penance
by Dave Armstrong

CHURCH FATHERS ON PURGATORY
by Joseph A. Gallegos

Arguments Against Purgatory Considered
by Kevin Tierney

Purgatory!
by Brent Arias

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The following are taken from http://www.newadvent.org/summa/700101.htm

Whether there is a Purgatory after this life?

Objection 1. It would seem that there is not a Purgatory after this life. For it is said (Apocalypse 14:13): "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord. From henceforth now, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors." Therefore after this life no cleansing labor awaits those who die in the Lord, nor those who do not die in the Lord, since they cannot be cleansed. Therefore there is no Purgatory after this life.

Objection 2. Further, as charity is to an eternal reward, so is mortal sin to eternal punishment. Now those who die in mortal sin are forthwith consigned to eternal punishment. Therefore those who die in charity go at once to their reward; and consequently no Purgatory awaits them after this life.

Objection 3. Further, God Who is supremely merciful is more inclined to reward good than to punish evil. Now just as those who are in the state of charity, do certain evil things which are not deserving of eternal punishment, so those who are in mortal sin, at times perform actions, generically good, which are not deserving of an eternal reward. Therefore since these good actions are not rewarded after this life in those who will be damned, neither should those evil actions be punished after this life. Hence the same conclusion follows.

On the contrary, it is said (2 Maccabees 12:46): "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." Now there is no need to pray for the dead who are in heaven, for they are in no need; nor again for those who are in hell, because they cannot be loosed from sins. Therefore after this life, there are some not yet loosed from sins, who can be loosed therefrom; and the like have charity, without which sins cannot be loosed, for "charity covereth all sins" [Prov. 10:12]. Hence they will not be consigned to everlasting death, since "he that liveth and believeth in Me, shall not die for ever" [Jn. 11:26]: nor will they obtain glory without being cleansed, because nothing unclean shall obtain it, as stated in the last chapter of the Apocalypse (verse 14). Therefore some kind of cleansing remains after this life.

Further, Gregory of Nyssa [De iis qui in fide dormiunt] says: "If one who loves and believes in Christ," has failed to wash away his sins in this life, "he is set free after death by the fire of Purgatory." Therefore there remains some kind of cleansing after this life.

I answer that, From the conclusions we have drawn above (III, 86, 4-5; Supplement, 12, 1) it is sufficiently clear that there is a Purgatory after this life. For if the debt of punishment is not paid in full after the stain of sin has been washed away by contrition, nor again are venial sins always removed when mortal sins are remitted, and if justice demands that sin be set in order by due punishment, it follows that one who after contrition for his fault and after being absolved, dies before making due satisfaction, is punished after this life. Wherefore those who deny Purgatory speak against the justice of God: for which reason such a statement is erroneous and contrary to faith. Hence Gregory of Nyssa, after the words quoted above, adds: "This we preach, holding to the teaching of truth, and this is our belief; this the universal Church holds, by praying for the dead that they may be loosed from sins." This cannot be understood except as referring to Purgatory: and whosoever resists the authority of the Church, incurs the note of heresy.

Reply to Objection 1. The authority quoted is speaking of the labor of working for merit, and not of the labor of suffering to be cleansed.

Reply to Objection 2. Evil has not a perfect cause, but results from each single defect: whereas good arises from one perfect cause, as Dionysius asserts [Div. Nom. iv, 4]. Hence each defect is an obstacle to the perfection of good; while not every good hinders some consummation of evil, since there is never evil without some good. Consequently venial sin prevents one who has charity from obtaining the perfect good, namely eternal life, until he be cleansed; whereas mortal sin cannot be hindered by some conjoined good from bringing a man forthwith to the extreme of evils.

Reply to Objection 3. He that falls into mortal sin, deadens all the good he has done before, and what he does, while in mortal sin, is dead: since by offending God he deserves to lose all the good he has from God. Wherefore no reward after this life awaits him who dies in mortal sin, whereas sometimes punishment awaits him who dies in charity, which does not always wash away the sin which it finds, but only that which is contrary to it.

[Sovabon]

I am asking Bible verses that can fully explain the existence of the Purgatory and not from anyone else. If we cant see even a single word in Bible, then it does not exist.

[dacs]

I am asking Bible verses that can fully explain the existence of the Purgatory and not from anyone else. If we cant see even a single word in Bible, then it does not exist.

Typical.

Your response just shows that you have not read the response, and then you come up with the above post. It's no use addressing you or acknowledging your question. You never care to read the answer anyway.

Ciao.

[tolstoi]

religion is flawed because man itself is flawed..thus a debate on religion is always destined to be flawed.

If we follow that logic, then a debate on ANYTHING is flawed, is it not?

i beleive it is..nobody's perfect except GOD

[Cardinal Bunal]

1. First of all we are cleansed and sanctfied by faith in Christ Jesus (Acts 26: 18, Heb. 10: 14 )

2. "Easy believism" does NOT justify one because his faith is NOT displayed (James 2: 18, 2: 24 ) but even to the one who worketh not, his faith and trust in Jesus who justifies the ungodly his credited as RIGHTEOUSNESS (Rom. 4: 4, 5 )

3. Works do NOT add to salvation (Titus 3: 5, Eph. 2: 9 ), but instead it is what we are saved to do (Eph. 2: 10, 2 Tim. 3: 17 )

And while Peter writes that LOVE covers a multitude of sins, it isn't Biblical theology that love and deeds can OFFSET sin. Only the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ can take away one's sins....

[Uri Geller Burton]

I have an uncle and he is a Christian but then he has encountered what some call a curse as his bakery was burned up in an mishap.....

JFK is a Roman Catholic but it appears his family line is cursed, we know what happened to JFK..... and some time 1999, his son vanished, apparently without a trace....

I know an aetheist who appears to be so blessed with riches, intelligence and a wife and kids and so far they have only been receiving good from their resources.


so based on these observations of events, which religion is NOT accursed and which one is true? Catholic or Christian? or Aetheist? Or is this argument a fallacy?