What's wrong with HB 3773? A LOT!!! (New Online Petitions added!)

[amaw]

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^^^
you still don't get it, do you? I though you have brains....

Don't tell people about them lacking of logical thinking, if simple logic is applied to your point, your argument would eventually become pointless..... as simple as that.

but hey that's really up to you....I would not care less....or more

[mannyamador]

you still don't get it, do you? I though you have brains....

I do. you don't.

Try taking a look at the scientific and demographci evidence presented on this thread. If you don't agree with me, then I challenge you to refute my evidence. So far, you CAN'T.

Your logic is flawed. Find an argument and back it up with evidence. Until you do, you're just full of HOT AIR.

[amaw]

^^^
ohhhh no, I need to repeat again about the concept of your argument and the logic combined......Don't talk about logic(or specifically, don't tell people that they are lacking some logical thinking), if, you're going to apply logic in your argument, your argument will become pointless.

If A is 1 million sq. km. and there are 20 occupants in A, if we keep on increasing the occupants and A stays the same size, time will come each occupant will fight for a space as it is not good enough for everyone......

that's logic.

so your argument to increase the population to improve our way of living would become pointless, if logic is applied.

and you want another logic?
OK, if all the problems stay the same(corruption,drug addiction, improper distribution of lands and foods...etc.) percentile-wise, if we increase the population, that would logically mean that more people are victims of corruptions, more drug addicts, more people would become malnourish and fight for lands. more people will suffer.

That's logical thinking.



My point is very clear, stay away from logic(or don't tell people that they lack logical thinking) if you want your argument to be heard as you would only drown yourself in your own pond.

comprende?

[mannyamador]

If A is 1 million sq. km. and there are 20 occupants in A, if we keep on increasing the occupants and A stays the same size, time will come each occupant will fight for a space as it is not good enough for everyone...

That's really poor logic. It's out of touch with reality.

Have you ever tried to fogure out how long it will take 20 persosn to reproduce enough ti fill a MILLION square kilometers? Probably over SEVERAL THOUSAND YEARS assuming a 3% growth rate.

In other words, while the land area is THEORETICALLY finite, it may as well be PRACTICALLY infinite! The same goes for the world. The earth's resources are so vast that current population growth is NOWHERE near overwhelming it. In fact, some estimates say that the earth can support 4 TIMES the current global population even assuming that food production does NOT increase.

You don't know how to think logically. That's the bottom line.

[mannyamador]

Here's some BETTER logic.

Population implosion
By Gene Edward Veith
http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/...cultural_1.asp

Many nations are aborting their future generations, creating a
worldwide underpopulation crisis

The president of Estonia goes on national TV to urge his countrymen to
have more children. Russian President Vladimir Putin warns his parliament
about "a serious crisis threatening Russia's survival": the nation's low
birth rate. The government of Singapore is trying to reverse that
country's birth dearth by sponsoring a massive taxpayer-funded matchmaking
service.

In 1968, Paul Ehrlich published The Population Bomb, panicking the world
with dire predictions of a population explosion. By the year 2000, he
predicted, the world would be so crowded that hundreds of millions would
die of starvation. Although Mr. Ehrlich's prophecies have turned out to be
almost comically wrong, PBS has produced a documentary taking him
seriously, and philanthropists like Ted Turner still donate millions to
combat population growth.

But the problem today is not overpopulation; it's underpopulation. For a
population to reproduce itself, the fertility rate must average 2.1
children per woman. (The .1 allows for child mortality.) The fertility
rate today among major developed nations is only 1.6.

The United States is rare among its peers in keeping its fertility rate at
around the replacement level of 2.1, according to the Population Reference
Bureau, which provided the fertility data cited here. Europe, though, is
shrinking. Germany's rate is 1.3. Despite the stereotype of large Catholic
families, France has a fertility rate of 1.9 and Italy has one of the
lowest in Europe, 1.3. At this rate, there will be only about half as many
Italians in the next generation. There will also be fewer Russians, whose
fertility rate is 1.3.

Even nations that were once notorious for booming populations have
drastically slowed down in reproducing themselves. In the last 20 years,
India's fertility rate has gone from over four children per woman to about
three. Mexico has gone from over four to just under three. China has a
fertility rate of 1.8.

African nations continue to have very high fertility rates, up to five or
six children per woman, but those lands are ravaged by AIDS, which is
decimating their population. Muslim nations, on the other hand, tend to
have booming population growthâ -- Yemen's fertility rate is 7.2
children per woman.

Demographers predict that the world's population will level off at 9
billion, reports The Wall Street Journal. Then it will start dropping.
There may well be nearly 500 million fewer people by 2075.

Isn't this a good thing? Why are so many governments panicking at the drop
in their populations?

Although radical environmentalists like Mr. Ehrlich see human beings only
as "consumers of the earth's resources," human beings are in fact the most
valuable resource of all. Citizens are not just consumers but producers.
Having fewer people can wreak havoc on an economy, creating both a labor
shortage and a shortage of buyers. A government with a shrinking
population faces a smaller military and fewer taxpayers. Dwindling
populations have always signaled cultural decline, with less creativity,
energy, and vitality on every level of society.

Already Japan -- fertility rate 1.3â -- is facing the problem of having
fewer taxpaying young people to support the burgeoning number of retirees,
something that will hit the generous welfare states of Europe especially
hard.

Already Europe has had to import large numbers of immigrants to bolster
the labor force, most of them from the Middle East. Fewer and fewer native
Europeansâ -- along with the dwindling influence of Christianity -- and
more and more Muslims raise the prospect of the Islamification of
Western Europe. One reason "old Europe" is not supporting the United
States in a war with Iraq is that politicians in France and Germany fear
the reaction among their Muslim voters.

Why the population decline? The worldwide collapse of what are, literally,
family values. Thanks to contraceptive technology, *** has become
separated from childbearing. With women pursuing careers of their own and
men getting *** without the responsibilities of marriage, why bother with
children? For many women and men, pregnancy has become an unpleasant side
effect, something to prevent with contraceptives or easily treat with a
trip to the abortion clinic.

The dirty little secret of the population implosion, one seldom mentioned
by demographers, is that the world is aborting its future generations.
China has shrunk its fertility rate by its cruel policy of forced
abortion. (The website of the International Planned Parenthood Federation
has only good things to say about China and does not even mention how the
government coerces women to have abortions. So much for "choice.")

In the United States, abortion ends between one-third and one-fifth of all
pregnancies, and the U.S. abortion rate is relatively low. In Russia, the
average woman may have as many as four abortions in her lifetime. There
are two abortions for every live birth. That is to say, Russians kill
two-thirds of their children before they are born. That, Mr. Putin, is the
"serious crisis threatening Russia's survival."

[mannyamador]

UNAIDS backs religious, Prolife alliance vs. AIDS

REPRESENTATIVES from various faith-based groups signed a covenant that will engage them
to cooperative activities against Acquired Immuno-Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS) in preparation
for AIDS Awareness Month on December. The event, sponsored by the AIDS Society of the
Philippines and the Joint United Nations Programme for HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS), was held on Oct.
25 and 26 at Imperial Palace Suites, Quezon City...

In the UNAIDS Interfaith Workshop on HIV and AIDS: Leadership through Partnerships, the
various groups discussed their position on issues surrounding AIDS, and common grounds on
enforcing policies. The groups vowed to remove stigma and discrimination of people infected
with AIDS within their communities, and not to dismiss the disease as divine retribution to
sinners or homosexuals.

“AIDS does not discriminate, it is very democratic. While majority of AIDS cases in the United
States occur among homosexual and bisexual groups, most of those infected in Africa are
heterosexuals,” Rose Camba, program coordinator of the United Church of Christ in the
Philippines, said. “You can also be faithful to your spouse but still catch AIDS due to blood
transfusion or rape,” she said.

Current data meanwhile indicate that men who have *** with men (MSMs), *** workers,
intravenous drug users, and overseas Filipino workers and their partners are particularly
vulnerable to HIV infection.

The interfaith workshop was launched in response to epidemiological reports that incidence
of the disease is “hidden and growing” in the country, and religions play crucial role in
defining the behaviors of Filipinos. There are now 2,333 reported HIV-infection in the country,
majority of those infected are males (64%), asymptomatic cases (70%), and in the young 20-39
age group (69 %). Sexual intercourse is the leading mode of transmission (85 %).

Austere Panadero, Vice-Chairman of the Philippine National AIDS Council, said that for every
registered case of AIDS infection, there are four unregistered cases, amounting to 10,000
Filipinos who now might be HIV-positive.

Condom disputes

Among the controversial points raised was the issue of same-*** marriage. Abbot
Richard Mickley of the Order of St. Aelred, a gay and lesbian religious community,
advocated same-*** unions, which, Mickley said, “will reduce HIV incidence among
homosexuals since they will be faithful to one uninfected partner.” Mickley admitted
that MSMs are vulnerable to AIDS.

Meanwhile, during the interfaith sharings, there were dissentions on the A, B, C,
approaches against AIDS (A stands for abstinence for the unmarried, B for being
faithful to partner, and C for condom-use). The Catholic Church, B’hai faith, and Pro-Life
Philippines expressed reservations on condom promotion.

“In Thailand where I used to work, AIDS infection is very high despite high condom
use,” said Sr. Mae Alere, D.C. of the Programme for People Living With HIV/AIDS and
their Families. “Condoms are not 100 percent effective. There are significant risks.
Are we willing to suffer individuals for a lifetime just for minutes of pleasure?”

Supporting Sr. Alere, the youth representative of Pro-Life Philippines, Nicolo Bernardo,
moved for family-oriented values formation that encourages postponement of sexual
activity for the young and commitment of married partners.

“Our message is not ‘no’ to ***, but to save *** for one’s lifetime marriage partner. These
are tested responses in Uganda, where they were able to reduce HIV incidence by 60
percent by returning to traditional indigenous values and by launching a “True Love Waits”
campaign. As a pro-life organization, we believe that HIV is a serious threat to life that
necessitates these radical responses,” he said.

In an interfaith presentation, the groups agreed on A and B approaches, and called
for accurate information on condoms. “Condom efficacy against AIDS must not be
exaggerated. It does not guarantee protection,” Bernardo said.

Meanwhile, Prof. Bagian Aleyssa Abdulkarim, dean of the College of Social Work and
Community Development of the Western Mindanao State University, presented
Islamic initiatives on HIV/AIDS, which include the celebration of the World AIDS
DAY in imosques to promote awareness, a national fatwa (official ruling) on reproductive
health, and encouragement of A and B approaches to AIDS.

“Satisfying and safe *** life must only be with the legitimate spouse, and condom-use
against AIDS is only allowable within marriage,” Abdulkarim said.

Islam supports reduction of sexual partners, which is crucial in reducing multiple
transmissions of AIDS. Abdulkarim explained that Islam prescribes monogamy although it
permits capable men to marry up to four wives. Demographic data also shows that most
Muslims are monogamous.

“The Holy Quran permits a man to have four wives as long as he can treat them equally --
materially, emotionally, physically, psychologically, and spiritually. ButQuran verses
(4:3,19,20,129; 33:4) forewarn that this condition is impossible, and therefore monogamy
is still the rule,” she said.

In the end, the groups agreed to adopt only actions that “respect and recognize the
uniqueness within traditions.”

“Let us now act by the example of the Good Samaritan, who reached out to a man in
need despite difference of belief, morality, and faith,” Gerardo Vicente, captain of
the Salvation Army, said.

[mannyamador]

This is what happens when population controllers have their way!

Details of Forced Abortions in China Emerge as Blind Activist Detained

Linyi, China (LifeNews.com) -- Since he placed a spotlight on a
brutal campaign by population control officials in one region of
China, blind activist Chen Guangcheng has been under house arrest and
twice assaulted for trying to leave. Now, some of the details of the
thousands of forced abortions and sterilizations he helped expose are
coming to light. In a comprehensive report by the San Francisco Chronicle,
women who were subjected to violence, harassment and forced
abortions tell their story. Zhu Hongying, 40, and her husband, Xia
Jiandong, 40 were farmers in a local village outside the huge city of Linyi.
They already had one son and when population control officials found
out Zhu was five months pregnant, she hid with family members in Linyi.
"We panicked and ran into (Linyi) to hide," Zhu said during an interview
with the Chronicle by telephone because police have sealed off her area
following Chen's detention. Zhu said the officials arrested three of her
sisters in order to force her to come out of hiding. When she returned
home, "The people from the family planning department were waiting for
us. They demanded 700 RMB (about $90, two months' wages for Zhu) to
release my sisters-in-law, and then they pushed me into a van and took
me to a local family planning clinic." Once there, eight officials surrounded
her and coerced her into agreeing to have an abortion, she told the San
Francisco newspaper. "I just kept sobbing and begging, but no one
listened," she said. "Finally, I was so weak, I just said 'yes.' Then a doctor
came in and gave me an injection in the stomach. After I took the shot,
the whole day I didn't feel anything. The second day in the early morning
blood and water all flowed out of me. Then the baby came out, but it was
dead. It was a boy." After she had the abortion, her husband said, a nurse
came back into the room, placed the baby in a black plastic bag. "She told
me to go throw it into a truck, which had a large container kind of thing at
the back," Xia explained to the Chronicle. "When I opened the door and
looked in, it was full of black bags and blood."

[amaw]

If A is 1 million sq. km. and there are 20 occupants in A, if we keep on increasing the occupants and A stays the same size, time will come each occupant will fight for a space as it is not good enough for everyone...

That's really poor logic. It's out of touch with reality.

Have you ever tried to fogure out how long it will take 20 persosn to reproduce enough ti fill a MILLION square kilometers? Probably over SEVERAL THOUSAND YEARS assuming a 3% growth rate.

In other words, while the land area is THEORETICALLY finite, it may as well be PRACTICALLY infinite! The same goes for the world. The earth's resources are so vast that current population growth is NOWHERE near overwhelming it. In fact, some estimates say that the earth can support 4 TIMES the current global population even assuming that food production does NOT increase.

You don't know how to think logically. That's the bottom line.

wheewww, you've been claiming that I can't think logically, but I'm not sure you can....I'm just stating an example of logical thinking

Do we need to wait until the population growth will reach to an overwhelming rate, then we will do something about it...... just like what happened to our ozone layer, which in the 70's, people can do something to stop global warming, yet people were thinking that it's not an overwhelming rate.....look what kind of dilemma are we facing now?

and how about this logic:

OK, if all the problems stay the same(corruption,drug addiction, improper distribution of lands and foods...etc.) percentile-wise, if we increase the population, that would logically mean that more people are victims of corruptions, more drug addicts, more people would become malnourish and fight for lands. more people will suffer.

what can you say about this?

[mannyamador]

wheewww, you've been claiming that I can't think logically, but I'm not sure you can....I'm just stating an example of logical thinking

That's precisely what is in question. Your example is precisely ILLOGICAL.

Do we need to wait until the population growth will reach to an overwhelming rate, then we will do something about it

Again, you're ASSUMING it can even reach an overhwelming rate. But ALL the historical and demographic evidence shows OTHERWISE. There is no indication whatsoever that global population is anywhere near "overhwelming". In fact as the articles above have shown, the greater danger is POPULATION DECLINE.

and how about this logic:

It's not logic. If we follow that kind of thinking, then we should eliminate all people so we can eliminate those problems entirely. That's insane. That is NOT logical at all. Try again.

[mannyamador]

In the News: Pro-life groups want all IUDs banned

(Oct 10, 2005) PRO-Life groups have petitioned the Department of Health to put a stop to the
sale and use of Mirena-Levonogestrel and other intrauterine devices (IUDs) for being abortifacient
and a health risk instead of contraceptives.

AbayPamilya Foundation, with four other pro-life groups and several individuals, requested Health
secretary Francisco Duque III to delist and ban the use of all IUDs in the Philippines because of their
“abortifacient action on the early human life and manifold and serious hazards to health and the
fatal effect of IUDs on women and mothers.

Mirena's marketing permits is due for renewal after its lapse in May.

Mirena and Nova TCU are two types of IUDs sold in the country by pharmaceutical company
Leiras/Schering AG (Zuellig). Couples into family planning use these as an alternative to
contraceptive pills, condoms, and injectables.

Pro-life advocates, however, claimed that IUDs work by destroying the endometrial tissues of the
uterus to prevent the implantation of the fertilized egg.

The petition filed by AbayPamilya's Jo Aurea Imbong cited the findings of the American fertility
Society which said that IUDs work by “rendering the endometrium blighted, corroded, and
inhospitable to the implantation of a new human being.”

“In summary, every IUDs currently or previously manufactured prevents implantation: they
are therefore all abortifacients. In other words, these devices ensure that the purpose of
the womb is perverted completely, to the point where the uterus is barren and hostile to new
life as a desert,” the AFS study added.

The petitioners said the Contraception and fertility and Sterility journals' review, over the period
of 1980-1995, showed that “harm associated with the current IUD use include sterility;
hemorrhage, perforation of the uterus, colon, bladder or small or large intestine; cervical
lacerations; cervical dysplasia; deep embedding of the IUD ( a serious problem in the developing
countries, where the women may have had the devices in their uterus for a decade or more),
fragmentation of the IUD; dysmenorrhoea; development of the hydatidiform moles; menorrhagia;
inflammation of the uterine tubes; and pelvic inflammatory disease , which leads to infertility or sterility.

AbayPamilya said a US study on Mirena showed that it can cause the loss of 20-100 embryos a year
for every 100 user.

Imbong in the interview said their efforts should not be seen as an attempt by the Catholic Church to
stop the promotion of alternative family planning methods by the government.

“This move is the private initiative of members of civil society from different professions and advocacies.”
In fairness to their common effort, they labored for along time to come to this point, including going
around the country documenting cases of women victims who are now suffering or have suffered a lot
(those fell ill before dying) as a result of the use of the IUD on their bodies.

Note: The article above was taken from the October 10, 2005 edition of The MALAYA
Ruelle Alberto D. Castro, The Malaya