Tradentine Mass(the Tradition came from Jesus Christ Himself) The Mass of Many Saints

[derelict sneakers]

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i copied and pasted my comment on the Second Vatican Council thread here. I don't understand why it was closed...

what i wanted to point out was the Spiritual authenticity of Vatican II and this includes the "new mass vs. tradentine mass" argument (which for me should never be an argument at all). I just felt obliged to put up a little defense. BUt really, again, I was trying to emphasize on the SPIRITUAL AUTHENTICITY of the tenets of Vatican II.

Here goes:

i have a copy of "nourish your life with the council" it outlines and expounds the things discussed and agreed upon by bishops and theologians during the second vatican council. the principles are not so "liberal theology" or "apocalyptic" as most people think. in fact, i think they are in-line with the catholic tradition and quite simple for lay people to understand. although they do emphasize on social justice, which for me, still, has traditionally been a Christian concern and not a modern innovation. Catholics and other Christians should examine them closer rather than judge them based on what they heard about it. This has been one of the problems concerning Vatican II: due to misinformation it has been popularly viewed as too scholarly, or too intellectual, or too exclusive / secretive which gave it an aura of mystery, if not conspiracy. But the truth is, it's not at all that. Find a copy (very cheap - 20 pesos only) and read it for yourselves.

to rclong_rey: the statistics you showed are not that convincing - you should not view the patterns in conversion in the united states as caused by only one factor, namely the promulgation of the new mass. there were other more direct and logical factors such as the growth of post-modern culture which emphasized on individualistic / new age spirituality among other things or new socio-economic trends or political movements (for instance, the Vietnam War and Cold-War hysteria which bred a generation of young people disenchanted with anything traditional) - all hardly the creation of the second vatican council. you are right though in pointing out that the RCC should not bend or compromise its moral tradition - but you didn't need to because, truly, it has NOT (!). Listen to how it has continued to speak out against abortion, divorce, same *** marriage, capital punishment, artificial birth control, violations of human rights and dignity, etc. despite the risk of it being labeled "kill joy" or "ultra-conservative" or "unfashionable."

+++

About the "universal" orientation of the church: the RCC has always been universal. Catholic is a synonym for universal. The RCC does not present itself as the exclusive vessel of God's love, rather, it preaches (according to its apostolic nature) the universality of God's love. That God's love is overflowing, that it cannot be contained and that it is there and here for everyone.

Thank you all for your patience

[derelict sneakers]

this is a good discussion for catholics...you are not catholic! so piss off!

Nice point. no offense M. regnauld. I would like to point out why every time we talk about Catholic dogma / doctrine, it becomes political. It's because we always come under attack by occult apologists, conspiracy theorists, dan brown minions or whatever.

the masses in vernacular, for me, have been very helpful in making the Eucharist more accessible to the hundreds of millions of believers out there. I don't think the mass is more holy simply because it is said in Latin. As lightbearer pointed out, Jesus Christ himself said the first Eucharist not in Latin but in Old Hebrew (Aramaic). But despite the fact that the mass is now said in different languages, it has remained Latin in structure.

What I propose is there should at least be one Tradentine mass held each day for people who prefer it and the number should be increased over time. I think this is going to happen because Pope Benedict XVI stressed from the very start the return to tradition and re-emphasized on the sanctity of the Eucharist. Haven't you noticed lately? Masses are now held with rituals reminiscent of the Tradentine format.

[rclong_rey]

pero sa consecration ang pari ra ang mag offer samtang nagatalikod sa mga tawo: unya ang mga tawo, mangadye ra pod ug ila: rosaryo, nobena, etc ...

let me correct this thing, The priest is facing to the Altar because He is Leading the Prayer.. the Mass is a Prayer, the Highest form of prayer.. Do not Pray on the Mass but recite the Mass because it is the prayer itself.(((((mangadye ra pod ug ila: rosaryo, nobena, etc ...))))->> this is wrong bro.. you had not been there in a traditional mass so you didn't understand what is going on.
the Priest also must face to the altar & not to the people because He is focusing to the prayer & focusing to GOd, focusing to the sacrifice of Mass.. the people also in the mass will follow in their eyes, mouth and Heart or the role of the faithful attending the Mass will help the Priest to Pray the Mass so that God will accept the offering or the sacrifice..

Even the practice of the Faith varies as time goes ...

True Catholic in Heart & mind will never think like this... this is not Jesus Christ wanted to happen in His Church.. What He teaches 2000 years ago must not change....

Basta para nako, ang bag-o nga Misa (Vatican Council II) kay mas klaro ang participation sa mga faithful sa sakripisyo sa altar ...

What would you prefer a Dogma or lets say, an option from Traditional way or just a pastoral council...
First Vatican is a Dogma which is codified at the Council of Trent.
even Pope Saint Pius V stated that: whoever may change this, let him be anathema...
we must only obey a teaching if it is not against faith & morals...
Vatican II is not a dogma..
Even Pope Benedict XVI used the traditional Mass when He was elected as the Pope..because he knew that in the Traditional Mass, there is no doubt that there will be a Transubstantiation in the Holy Eucharist..Traditional Mass is the Most Holy form of Mass..

Unity should not be and only uniformity ... but even in diversity!

how can 2 boats goes in the same direction if they are at opposite current..

Here are some reasons why we should go to Traditional Mass if you didn't read the 62 reasons in the link:
7. Because in times of confusion such as now, we are guided by the words of our Lord: "By their fruits you shall know them." Fruits of the New Mass are: 30% decrease in Sunday Mass attendance in U.S. (NY Times 5/24/75), 43% decrease in France (Cardinal Marty), 50% decrease in Holland (NY Times 1/5/76).
9. Because in less than seven years after introduction of the New Mass, priests in the world decreased from 413,438 to 243,307—almost 50%. (Holy See Statistics).
14. Because the New Mass favors the heretical theory that it is THE FAITH of the people and not THE WORDS OF THE PRIEST which makes Christ present in the Eucharist.
17. Because the New Mass gives us to understand that the people concelebrate with the priest—which is against Catholic theology!
18. Because six Protestant ministers collaborated in making up the New Mass (George, Jasper, Shepherd, Kunneth, Smith and Thurian).
20. Because enough Catholic theology has been removed that Protestants can, while keeping their antipathy for the true Roman Catholic Church, use the text of the New Mass without difficulty. Protestant Minister Thurian said that a fruit of the New Mass "will perhaps be that the non-Catholic communities will be able to celebrate the Lord's Supper using the same prayers as the Catholic Church." (La Croix 4/30/69)
22. Because by grave omissions, the New Mass leads us to believe that it is only a meal (Protestant doctrine) and not a sacrifice for the remission of sins (Catholic doctrine).
26. Because the New Mass was made in accordance with the Protestant definition of the Mass: "The Lord's Supper or Mass is a sacred synaxis or assembly of the people of God which gathers together under the presidence of the priest to celebrate the memorial of the Lord." (Par. 7 Introd. to the New Missal, defining the New Mass, 4/6/69).
27. Because by means of ambiguity, the New Mass pretends to please Catholics while pleasing Protestants; thus it is "double-tongued" and offensive to God who abhors any kind of hypocrisy: "Cursed be ... the double-tongued for they destroy the peace of many." (Sirach 28:13).
44. Because the abolition of the traditional Mass recalls the prophecy of Daniel 8,12: "And he was given power against the perpetual sacrifice because of the sins of the people" and the observation of St. Alphonsus de Liguori that because the Mass is the best and most beautiful thing which exists in the Church here below, the devil has always tried by means of heretics to deprive us of it.
49. Because the New Mass attempts to transform the Catholic Church into a new, ecumenical Church embracing all ideologies and all religions—right and wrong, truth and error—a goal long dreamt of by the enemies of the Catholic Church.
56. Because Pope Paul VI, when promulgating the New Mass, himself declared, "The rite ... by itself is NOT a dogmatic definition ..." (11/19/69)
57. Because Pope Paul VI, when asked by Cardinal Heenan of England, if he was abrogating or prohibiting the Tridentine Mass, answered: "It is not my intention to prohibit absolutely the Tridentine Mass."


61. Because, as stated in Vatican Council I, the "Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter, that by His revelation they might make new doctrine, but that by His assistance they might inviolably keep and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith delivered through the Apostles." (D.S. 3070)
62. Because heresy, or whatever clearly favors heresy, cannot be matter for obedience. Obedience is at the service of Faith and not Faith at the service of obedience! In this foregoing case then, "One must obey God before men." (Acts of the Apostles 5,29)

[rclong_rey]

to rclong_rey: the statistics you showed are not that convincing - you should not view the patterns in conversion in the united states as caused by only one factor, namely the promulgation of the new mass.

* Letter of Cardinals A. Ottaviani and A. Bacci to Pope Paul VI, dated September 25, 1969 enclosing A Critical Study of The Novus Ordo Missae.

this is the source of the 62 reasons & the statistics.. they chose to have a statistics in USA just because at that time USA have the biggest population of Roman Catholics...not too convincing if you didnt read all the 62 reasons. we cannot understand fully just by reading the 62 reasons if we dont try to attend the Latin Mass.. I encourage you all just to observe, then after that you will judge for yourself where you would be at ease... just be patient in trying to observe.. then compare the New & the Latin..
Just like me, I observe the RCC New Mass, Born again praising, & the Traditional Mass..
then after, i chose...because it is insisted in my conscience & Human Reason.
I read also articles favoring about New Mass, its doctrine, teaching & changes from the Traditional..
new cathecism->Vaticvan 2-> I read some important part

[derelict sneakers]

* Letter of Cardinals A. Ottaviani and A. Bacci to Pope Paul VI, dated September 25, 1969 enclosing A Critical Study of The Novus Ordo Missae.

this is the source of the 62 reasons & the statistics.. they chose to have a statistics in USA just because at that time USA have the biggest population of Roman Catholics...not too convincing if you didnt read all the 62 reasons. we cannot understand fully just by reading the 62 reasons if we dont try to attend the Latin Mass.. I encourage you all just to observe, then after that you will judge for yourself where you would be at ease... just be patient in trying to observe.. then compare the New & the Latin..
Just like me, I observe the RCC New Mass, Born again praising, & the Traditional Mass..
then after, i chose...because it is insisted in my conscience & Human Reason.
I read also articles favoring about New Mass, its doctrine, teaching & changes from the Traditional..
new cathecism->Vaticvan 2-> I read some important part

But the interpretations of the statistics were made by only a few "traditionalists," namely Cardinals A. Ottaviani and A. Bacci, and were, apparently, not endorsed by other church leaders. Therefore, the larger organization of the church itself did not view the new mass as the culprit. Again, this is my point: the decrease in mass attendance in the U.S. and Europe, could not be blamed on the installation of the new mass. If the new mass had this adverse effect in the First World, why not the Third World? Because the truth was a growing number of Americans and Europeans had other reasons for avoiding church services, it wasn't the new mass. I hold on to my argument that the decline of church attendance was caused by factors i mentioned previously.

And pertaining to the revisions - they were not substantive, in fact, it added portions to the traditional mass and even enlarged on biblical scripture. For this point I will quote Chapter II of the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy of the Second Vatican Council dated December 4, 1963:

"[T]he rite of the Mass is to be revised ... the rites are to be simplified, due care being taken to preserve their substance. Parts which with the passage of time came to be duplicated, or were added with little advantage, are to be omitted. Other parts which suffered loss through accidents of history are to be restored to the vigor they had in the days of the holy Fathers, as may seem useful or necessary. The treasures of the Bible are to be opened up more lavishly so that a richer fare may be provided for the faithful at the table of God’s word ... A suitable place may be allotted to the vernacular in Masses which are celebrated with the people ... communion under both kinds may be granted when the bishops think fit...as, for instance, to the newly ordained in the Mass of their sacred ordination, to the newly professed in the Mass of their religious profession, and to the newly baptized in the Mass which follows their baptism..." (the quote i took from Tridentine Mass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Hence, while rites were simplified the essence of the Eucharist was never altered.

But in order to give due respect to members of the church who want to recall the Tridentine Mass, I am for holding traditional service at least once a day and so on and so forth... (pleas view my previous post about this proposal). I myself want to experience the Latin Mass...

Still, we should be sensitive to the culture that we are in. If people would not be able to understand half of the mass because it is said in Latin there is a great danger that they will not bother to attend it.

[masterjanuarius]

let me correct this thing, The priest is facing to the Altar because He is Leading the Prayer.. the Mass is a Prayer, the Highest form of prayer.. Do not Pray on the Mass but recite the Mass because it is the prayer itself.(((((mangadye ra pod ug ila: rosaryo, nobena, etc ...))))->> this is wrong bro.. you had not been there in a traditional mass so you didn't understand what is going on.

the Priest also must face to the altar & not to the people because He is focusing to the prayer & focusing to GOd, focusing to the sacrifice of Mass.. the people also in the mass will follow in their eyes, mouth and Heart or the role of the faithful attending the Mass will help the Priest to Pray the Mass so that God will accept the offering or the sacrifice..


True Catholic in Heart & mind will never think like this... this is not Jesus Christ wanted to happen in His Church.. What He teaches 2000 years ago must not change....


What would you prefer a Dogma or lets say, an option from Traditional way or just a pastoral council...
First Vatican is a Dogma which is codified at the Council of Trent.
even Pope Saint Pius V stated that: whoever may change this, let him be anathema...
we must only obey a teaching if it is not against faith & morals...
Vatican II is not a dogma..
Even Pope Benedict XVI used the traditional Mass when He was elected as the Pope..because he knew that in the Traditional Mass, there is no doubt that there will be a Transubstantiation in the Holy Eucharist..Traditional Mass is the Most Holy form of Mass..


how can 2 boats goes in the same direction if they are at opposite current..

Here are some reasons why we should go to Traditional Mass if you didn't read the 62 reasons in the link:
7. Because in times of confusion such as now, we are guided by the words of our Lord: "By their fruits you shall know them." Fruits of the New Mass are: 30% decrease in Sunday Mass attendance in U.S. (NY Times 5/24/75), 43% decrease in France (Cardinal Marty), 50% decrease in Holland (NY Times 1/5/76).
9. Because in less than seven years after introduction of the New Mass, priests in the world decreased from 413,438 to 243,307—almost 50%. (Holy See Statistics).
14. Because the New Mass favors the heretical theory that it is THE FAITH of the people and not THE WORDS OF THE PRIEST which makes Christ present in the Eucharist.
17. Because the New Mass gives us to understand that the people concelebrate with the priest—which is against Catholic theology!
18. Because six Protestant ministers collaborated in making up the New Mass (George, Jasper, Shepherd, Kunneth, Smith and Thurian).
20. Because enough Catholic theology has been removed that Protestants can, while keeping their antipathy for the true Roman Catholic Church, use the text of the New Mass without difficulty. Protestant Minister Thurian said that a fruit of the New Mass "will perhaps be that the non-Catholic communities will be able to celebrate the Lord's Supper using the same prayers as the Catholic Church." (La Croix 4/30/69)
22. Because by grave omissions, the New Mass leads us to believe that it is only a meal (Protestant doctrine) and not a sacrifice for the remission of sins (Catholic doctrine).
26. Because the New Mass was made in accordance with the Protestant definition of the Mass: "The Lord's Supper or Mass is a sacred synaxis or assembly of the people of God which gathers together under the presidence of the priest to celebrate the memorial of the Lord." (Par. 7 Introd. to the New Missal, defining the New Mass, 4/6/69).
27. Because by means of ambiguity, the New Mass pretends to please Catholics while pleasing Protestants; thus it is "double-tongued" and offensive to God who abhors any kind of hypocrisy: "Cursed be ... the double-tongued for they destroy the peace of many." (Sirach 28:13).
44. Because the abolition of the traditional Mass recalls the prophecy of Daniel 8,12: "And he was given power against the perpetual sacrifice because of the sins of the people" and the observation of St. Alphonsus de Liguori that because the Mass is the best and most beautiful thing which exists in the Church here below, the devil has always tried by means of heretics to deprive us of it.
49. Because the New Mass attempts to transform the Catholic Church into a new, ecumenical Church embracing all ideologies and all religions—right and wrong, truth and error—a goal long dreamt of by the enemies of the Catholic Church.
56. Because Pope Paul VI, when promulgating the New Mass, himself declared, "The rite ... by itself is NOT a dogmatic definition ..." (11/19/69)
57. Because Pope Paul VI, when asked by Cardinal Heenan of England, if he was abrogating or prohibiting the Tridentine Mass, answered: "It is not my intention to prohibit absolutely the Tridentine Mass."


61. Because, as stated in Vatican Council I, the "Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter, that by His revelation they might make new doctrine, but that by His assistance they might inviolably keep and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith delivered through the Apostles." (D.S. 3070)
62. Because heresy, or whatever clearly favors heresy, cannot be matter for obedience. Obedience is at the service of Faith and not Faith at the service of obedience! In this foregoing case then, "One must obey God before men." (Acts of the Apostles 5,29)

Bro, am amused by your "let him be anathema" thing ... mura ka man ug usa ka romanticist trying to bring back something old ... una sa tanan, ang practice is different before and now, but the FAITH is the SAME .. ingon diay ka nga tinuod na imo practice nga gikan man na sa roman tradition? Huna hunaon nato nga before it became a roman church .. it started as a church of Jerusalem, thereby even with jewish qualities could be seen then... now, if you think this is not true, then what is true for you? Tell me, Latin ba ang language ni Cristo? Latin ba ang iyang pangamuyo ngadto sa Amahan? Latin ba ang iyang mga pasumbingay? Bro, if you can prove to me that Christ used Latin, then sige mag tridentine misa ta .. Ayaw ana bro .. kay the church continues to move on her pilgrimage ... now we should be praying in hebrew or greek (the firsts languages used by the church), instead of the latin? The Holy Spirit moves where He wills .. and I think, to insist on your traditionalist thinking, and even imposing it at the expense of Vatican Council II and the Reformation of the Liturgy after, is tantamount to STIFLING the WORKS of the HOLY SPIRIT in the Church ... Sorry to say, but I love the Church of Vatican II and all of its liturgies .. Mi simba ko sa usa ka simbahan sa new manila nga gamit ang tridentine mass bro .. I didn't feel I belong to it .. respeto lang ta sa usag usa... Mind you, whenever I go, I always go to Church even if I do not understand the Language in use ... but deep in my heart is my joy, that the God I adore and love and serve and praise, is a God not Boxed in only with One Laguage (latin), but speak many languages and can be praised by many languages ... and yet, we (christians) are all united in the Worship of Him... nose bleed ko ani nga post da!

[rclong_rey]

If people would not be able to understand half of the mass because it is said in Latin there is a great danger that they will not bother to attend it.

yes it is said in Latin but did you see the Missal or the Mass guide?..there is no reason that you cannot understand, because the Missal has also translation in other side. at the left side of the Missal is the Latin language while at the right side is the english version or Visayan version or language.. so, hard to understand is not acceptable excuse maybe...

there is a Latin Mass in Cebu at Umapad mandaue... if any of you here try to observe.. you are very welcome.. the Mass is 1st, 2nd & 4th sunday only due to only one priest to say Mass in Bohol in the morning & in cebu in the afternoon...

[nirdle_phogi]

Ok ra ang latin mass kun kasabot kag latin.

[derelict sneakers]

yes it is said in Latin but did you see the Missal or the Mass guide?..there is no reason that you cannot understand, because the Missal has also translation in other side. at the left side of the Missal is the Latin language while at the right side is the english version or Visayan version or language.. so, hard to understand is not acceptable excuse maybe...

there is a Latin Mass in Cebu at Umapad mandaue... if any of you here try to observe.. you are very welcome.. the Mass is 1st, 2nd & 4th sunday only due to only one priest to say Mass in Bohol in the morning & in cebu in the afternoon...

No, i have not seen the Missal... i need to modify my last point then.

But even so, i still think the Tridentine Mass should be left as an option for those who prefer it. If it grows in popularity, then, the number of services can be increased.

As for the "New Mass," i think it's really applicable to our society and the times we're living in...

Thanks for the info. I will try to attend it this Sunday since it would be the second in this month. If only I knew the name of the church and the time...