MERGED: Vigilantism and related issues

[MelodyMan]

---

personally, dili ko ganahan ug death penalty. but when did2 ka sa davao, i can see nga effective man gud ang pamaagi ni duterte. in fact, mas dako ang davao sa area and then daghan lain2x tribo. lain2x pamatasan ug lain2x ang naandan nga kinabuhi... so in na jud ko ani...

ang tao man gud di makat-on ug usa ka pamaagi. maybe this is one way. let's see...dili lang ta mag-away dire sa storya.murag init na kaau ni nga topic..

>>Lisod ning daghan tang bright sa istorya , walay magpapildi bisan kabalo ka na commonsense ang ipadagan ana ug dili ang unsay gi tudlo sa maestro sa skwelahan .

tinood jud ni imong gisulat bai....mao sad ni giingon ni duterte sa iyang tv interview sa davao. daghan kaau mga groups nisaway niya about sa iyang pamalakad...unsa iyang comment?...kaning mga tawhana nag pa tuga2x, nag pa bright2x pero walay nahimo puro istorya...tinood man sad.daghan kaau istorya against sa pamalakad (rali,strike,human rights). ngano, naka sulay ka nga gi dunggab? gi ti-unan ug pusil? pag withdraw nimo sa atm(salary) igo ra gi kuha sa uban sus kung kasulay lang mo?..kasulay ko kawat cellphone.

about corrupt/problematic system, isa sad jud na sa problema. lisod kaau.

[BoyBastos]

@MelodyMan

Amen and Amen

[uzumaki]

OT: everybody ho attribute in dis thread are all entittled with thier opinions with due respect but let us not forget the real story behind this scene nothing where after but peace the highest price of all our endeavour to justify and maintain peace and order beyond this very hostile and chaotic society...i think most of us here are already mature enough to understand what is best not only for ourselves but also for the future's sake...personally as i mentioned b4 in ko ani, but dis issue should not be treated like a superstar (actor/actress) in which every angle are mostly fabricated else only few people could benefit with it.....
sa Military rule pa..."We need to be CRuel inorder to be KInd" but let us not forget the lines that goes..."Violence is like holding a sword w/out a handle, U have to hold the BLADES".....

[fuLLsTaR]

IN ko ani migo... pero ambot unsay samputanan, dili na raba ni sila mahadlok mopatay. Basin mahog
na ug LIGAS PAKA!!!

[giver_bert]

Count me out!

- i believe in the sanctity of life.. nobody has the right to take one's life.. of course we might say that do these criminals have the right in the first place? of course not! but do we have to be as barbaric as they are?

- we are basically cutting the weed short, as how i see it.. not unless if we figure out the ultimate cost on it and from there focus our efforts at trying to changed/solved it, then somehow we could probably attain at resolving problems.. not just "criminality" but other problems - poverty, corruption, illiteracy etc.. these are basically interconnected with each other..

[gareb]

what i mean is if this criminals are very able and can do task that even the physically handicapped people will strive hard in order to make a living then why will they still resort to petty crimes..they can work as farmers, as a balot/cigarrete vendors and any other non-technical jobs for as long as it is legal..eventhough it is not as profitable as what they currently do but at least they are making a clean living out of it...

perhaps you did not read well what i have posted a few days ago regarding on why criminal deviancy occurs at the first place. "criminal deviance does not result simply from the lack of legitimate opportunity, but also in the availability of illegitimate opportunities." farmer? no land. balot/cigarette vendor? that's for mere 'sinsilyo'. true, these are perfectly legal ways of earning a living, but will these be enough? can these actually make them rich? and how we encourage everyone to live a 'clean life', condemning those who do not, when we take problems like these on mere face value. planting palay on sand is seemingly what we are doing.

the fault with our analysis with criminality is that we think in very narrow terms. we think that criminality is a result only of individual character deficiencies, hence we immediately put the blame completely on the criminal for a petty incidents as phone snatchings, even serious ones as serial killings.

in our very limited assessment of the problem, we utterly fail to see where these people came from, and the social conditions that existed that may have contributed to them becoming what they are. we value individualism so much that we cannot even see that these people are part of the very society wherein we too are a part of.

we reject the idea that crime is a social problem because for it to be so we share the blame, and the responsibility to fix the problem from the very root. we want quick solutions, instant answers; bombastic and pompous solutions that never go beyond short-term, instead of a more protracted, and therefore long-ranged plan of transformation and rehabilitation.

when this criminals snatch anybody's cellphones/wallet or maybe worst when they stab this innocent people to death then isn't it barbaric??

does this imply then that barbarism plus barbarism is justice?

...and for the communities that these criminals will be driven into, that's already there initiative on how they'll manage the situation....

just as i say. epitome of selfishness. 'ila-ila, ato-ato' mentality'. and their initiative would be...?

just like what cebu does to emulate davao, because the criminals in this city has immigrated to nearby municipalities and other cities, it follows that the crime rate may increase in their area. with the foolish assumption of 'effectivity' they then try and emulate cebu, just as cebu emulated duterte and his davao death squad.

and here we are, living in a culture of fear. priding ourselves to be 'civilized'. ironic how this is supposedly a country of religiosity and devotion, be at the same time a killing field.

if this horrible scenario is to come to be, why not abolish the courts, the police, the laws, the whole judiciary department, the government bodies who make and enact laws. the whole government then. it seems that they are of no effect whatsoever. lets abolish all of those now, since we do not follow some of the selectively humane laws that exist, anyway.

He might think of this as a 'calculated risk' in which the sentiments of the people who are in favor of the move maybe overwhelming as compared to its aftermath...the current POLL result of who's In/Out will prove this one.....

i sincerely do hope that we are aware of how popular opinion may not always turn out to be the right one. bear in mind that popular opinion can be influenced and twisted given the right leverages and controls. an example is that we have elected popular presidents only to see them being toppled some years later. and to think one of them actually garnered the highest percentage of presidential votes ever recorded.

i do not have to impress the weight of 'moral judgement' that the religious communities has to the populace; the very same religious communities who are campaigning to put an end to this bloodlust. them and lawyers from the IBP.

can u give a specific jail in the world that effectively rehabilitated there prisoners?..even the most advance penetentiaries in the US could not convert a petty criminals to a law abiding, God fearing citizens..how much more in the overcrowded facilities here....

then you really have not encountered a rehabilitation center at acts like one, eh, as you call them 'jails' and their occupants as 'prisoners'. and it seems also that you assume that the rehabilitation process is merely a matter of reforming criminals. it is not just that. another process, which is of equal importance, is 'reintegration'. the term speaks for itself. i suggest you read again the difference between societal protection and rehabilitation. you seem to have confused the two, which of course is partly not your fault as we have been taught that they are one and the same.

it is as if you are saying that because of the fact that we have overcrowded facilities, that can be used as a justification (to use your term) to 'whack off' criminals. it is as if you are assuming that each and every person that has been imprison is actually guilty. it is as if you are assuming that the philippine penitentiaries (or even the US) have never produced a single reformed man.

indeed it is rotten, as the system that upholds it is. but that is not a justification to kill off the prisoners just because the government cannot place itself to build more (effective) facilities for rehabilitation. it is as if you are saying, 'lets kill em off, there are already too many in jails.'

it is already there mindset of doing crimes as a means of livelihood..they are hopeless individuals who dont give a damn on whatever conventional treatment instituted by the law.

and, mind if i ask, what shapes this mindset of criminality? what causes it? what are the factors that contribute to one becoming a criminal? how much part does one's immediate surroundings in early development affect one's perception later in life? how much does economic deprivation early on affect what he/she might do during puberty and adulthood?

have you ever even though of asking these questions? or do you, like so many jump to conclusions right away, with a haphazard analysis of what is actually going on?

'whack' them now, you'll still be 'whacking' them tomorrow and the years to come if we do not try and solve this problem from the root.

SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO WHACK THE UNRIGHTEOUS IN ORDER FOR THE RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE TO LIVE FREELY.

tell me, what moral right does one have to use immoral means to protect the 'righteous' and still claim to have some moral ascendancy, even self-righteousness?

i do not know, but for a supposedly god-fearing, Christian country, this seemingly is a complete 180 degree turn. coupled with a distorted view of what we are dealing with, i fear this path only leads to oblivion.

and we still are proud to be equated to savage killers. hilarious, if not for the seriousness of the situation.

[gareb]

PR0C\0UT:

ang bottom-line man gud ani bay, kasagaran sa mga tawo mutugot na lang nga pamatyon ning mga tawhana kay ang sistema sa panghustisya dri sa atoa dili epektibo. dili pa man gani makatarunganon usahay. kapila na man ta makadungog ug istorya nga ang hustisya para ra sa mga dato nga maka-bayad. lupig pirme ang pobre. problema ni siya.

dili ikalimod nga daghang mga kriminal nga dako pa unta ang posibilidad nga magbag-o apan kay na-expose sa kagaguhan sa sulod sa prisohan, mingsamot na hinuon. problema gihapon ni.

kung ugaling makabuhi na sa prisohan ug ganahan na nga mupuyo'g hapsay, unsaon man pagbuhi sa pamilya ug tarong nga dili man gani halos ka kuha ug trabaho kay 'ex-convict' lagi. dili pipila lang ang magsulod-gawas sa prisohan kay walay laing makitang tino nga trabaho nga mubuhi sa pamilya. dili ba problema sad ni?

pero ang labaw nga problema sa tanan kay kining mga butang nga nagtukmod sa mga tawo nga mubuhat ug mga krimen. kesyo panginahanglanon man sa matag-adlaw, o 'mindset' na jud sa pipila, kaning tanan mga simtomas lang sa isa ka mas lapad pa nga problema nga giatubang natong tanan.

masabtan ang pagtan-aw sa pipila nga kinahanglan pamatyon na lang ning mga taw-hana. apan kinahanglan ipakita nga dili kani ang solusyon sa problema. naay mas lawon nga rason aning tanan. kini ang gikinahanglan natong masuta pag-ayo.

BoyBastos:

perhaps you do not know me well enough to judge that i only sit around air-conditioned rooms and ride fancy cars. i have neither, and i ride in jeepneys. i even walk sometimes because i cannot afford it.

your idealistic belief of what is good and bad hinders you to see that there is more to humans than 'inate goodness'. even your idea of 'inate goodness' is shaped socially and concepts of good and bad are relative to who it is that is talking. even the concept of 'going astray' means nothing to people who are living hell in this world. refer to my previous posts on how criminal deviance develops and factors that affect the development of criminal tendencies.

you paint an example that encourages a person to act 'outside the boudaries of law' instead of within it. indeed the law and the justice system is flawed many times over, but that is not a reason to reject everything else including the more humane side of it.

of course, for criminals, discipline is in order. that is part of the rehabilitation. but discipline does not mean death. kung makasala ang bata, dili nimo patyon para disiplinahon. walay pulos ang pagdisiplina kung patay na ang bata.

it is not even a question of who will we kill, innocents or the guilty. it is a question of not killing anybody at all. you do not trust the justice system so you place the law in your hands... or even better yet let someone do the dirty deed for you? isnt that ironic? you hate the inconsistencies of the law, so you violate it? is this the common sense that we are talking about here?

refer to my previous posts regarding rehabilitation and facing the right problem with the right solutions. we simply are barking up at the wrong tree with a big stick in our hands.

by placing the law in your hands, you completely rob the courts of their jobs. by assenting to a group of people going round killing people extra-judicially, then you disrespect the courts and the rule of law. the law explicitly prohibits extra-judicial killings, if you do not know that. walay pulos ang isa ka balaod nga wala gisunod. walay pulos ang isa ka institusyon nga magpatuman sa balaod pero wala girespeto. iabolish na lang na siya kung ganahan man gani tag pinatyanay nga gawas sa balaod. please read some of my previous posts to prevent redundancy.

oh yes, CRIME DOES NOT PAY. but are you aware that by supporting these series of suimmary executions, you actually are supporting a crime?


and tell me, who will prevent these vigilantes from killing innocent people? and just in case naay maangol, kinsay manubag?

wala. krimen man gud gihapon na.

[archille]

Go DeathSquad!! Next target: leftist SCUMS!!!

[BoyBastos]

[


BoyBastos:

perhaps you do not know me well enough to judge that i only sit around air-conditioned rooms and ride fancy cars. i have neither, and i ride in jeepneys. i even walk sometimes because i cannot afford it.

@gareb Okay, If what you say is true then I offer my apologies to you. But it seems that you are out of touch with the real world. You don't feel the threat that the ordinary people feel. If you ride a jeepney as you say, why don't you talk to the jeepney drivers, who despite being poor and are living on a hand to mouth basis do not resort to crime. I assume you don't reside in Cebu City, cause if you do, well ambot nalang. Maghuwat pa siguro ka nga mabiktima. To see is to believe, to touch is to feel. Anyway I respect your opinion. Dili nata mag lalis kay mura nata ug Katokiko ug Iglesia di ta maghuman ani. Hurot atong laway, manga pudpud nalang atong tudlo ug tuslok sa keyboard wa gihapon tay mabuhat. In the meantime Anyway why don't we just sit and watch the Hunter team do their job and reserve our judgement on their effectiveness after a year.


your idealistic belief of what is good and bad hinders you to see that there is more to humans than 'inate goodness'. even your idea of 'inate goodness' is shaped socially and concepts of good and bad are relative to who it is that is talking. even the concept of 'going astray' means nothing to people who are living hell in this world. refer to my previous posts on how criminal deviance develops and factors that affect the development of criminal tendencies.

Regardless of how criminal deviance develops and factors that affect the development of criminal tendencies, It still DOES NOT JUSTIFY ROBBING THEN KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Those people are living under another set of laws, they understand only the law of the streets.

you paint an example that encourages a person to act 'outside the boudaries of law' instead of within it. indeed the law and the justice system is flawed many times over, but that is not a reason to reject everything else including the more humane side of it.

@gareb So do you mean to say that only the criminals are allowed to act 'outside the boundaries of law' instead of within it? It is not only the law and justice system that is flawed many times over, we have good laws, it's just a matter of enforcing the law. What's the use of making more laws when you can't even implement the law? I'm not talking about rejecting the law, I'm for implementing it. I'm not asking the ordinary people to carry guns and shoot the criminals. I'm only expressing my view that I am in favor of what the hunter team is doing. The hunter team is composed of LAW ENFORCERS. Therefore their job is to implement the law. And right now they are speaking the only language that these criminals understand. IF you talk about the humane side of the law, these people have been given their chance to reform by being jailed. Despite going in and out of jail they insist on going back to their old ways. Personally, I am stumped for a solution to this. If you have the answer kindly please give PM me. And I will personally deliver your words of wisdom to the Mayor.

of course, for criminals, discipline is in order. that is part of the rehabilitation. but discipline does not mean death. kung makasala ang bata, dili nimo patyon para disiplinahon. walay pulos ang pagdisiplina kung patay na ang bata.

@gareb It seems that you are deliberately misquoting me. In what part of my reply to you did I ever mention " kung makasala ang bata atong patyon para madisiplina" ? You are good at twisting the truth. You should study law. Maybe you could be Ecleo's next lawyer.

it is not even a question of who will we kill, innocents or the guilty. it is a question of not killing anybody at all.

@gareb Go tell that to the criminals. Tan awon nato ug dili ba mag pista ang mga snatcher, tulisan, kidnapper ug uban pang mga badlungun sa katilingban.

you do not trust the justice system so you place the law in your hands... or even better yet let someone do the dirty deed for you?

@gareb Whose talking about putting the law in his own hands? Did I suggest the civilians shoot criminals? Of course I let the law enforcers do their jobs. Kay ngano man? gusto diay ka akoy mangunay ug pusil sa mga criminal? Unsay imong pagtu o? Buang ko nga mamusil ug tulisan para mapriso ko. Ma o bitaw nang mag bayad ta ug buhis nga sakto para maka sweldo si Tomas sa mga pulis. Gamita kuno imong common sense.
That someone are the law enforcers who are there to protect the civilians because the civilians cannot protect themselves.

isnt that ironic? you hate the inconsistencies of the law, so you violate it? is this the common sense that we are talking about here?

@gareb The law is consistent, It is the people who interpret the law that are inconsistent. And whose talking about violating the law? I'm only for implementing it. Mao bitaw nga di gyud ta mu asenso kay " All talk no Action " man ta.


refer to my previous posts regarding rehabilitation and facing the right problem with the right solutions. we simply are barking up at the wrong tree with a big stick in our hands.

@gareb Okay, identify the right problem and give me your right solutions. I'm all ears. I don't know which tree you are barking at, but I would definitely like to see a DOG barking at a tree carrying a big stick in his hands.

by placing the law in your hands, you completely rob the courts of their jobs. by assenting to a group of people going round killing people extra-judicially, then you disrespect the courts and the rule of law. the law explicitly prohibits extra-judicial killings, if you do not know that. walay pulos ang isa ka balaod nga wala gisunod.

@gareb Kay ngano man diay? Did I ever mention killing the criminals myself? Of course I let the police do their job. Do you think these criminals respect the law? Try to ask the judges or the fiscals in the courts kung na a ba silay reklamo. Do you hear any? Nag rally ba ang mga nagtrabaho sa trial courts kay gi disrespect sila unya nahadlok sila nga mawad on ug trabaho kay. Matud pa nimo ug mahurot tanang criminals wala na silay trabaho kay i abolish na ang trial courts.

walay pulos ang isa ka institusyon nga magpatuman sa balaod pero wala girespeto.

@gareb Yes boy, finally nakasabot naka? Mao bitaw nang nangisog na ang law enforcement arm. Police, not the judiciary kay ang mga criminal wala na mu rispeto sa balaod. The judiciary is there to interpret the law, not to implement it. Try to ask a good lawyer, kung unsay function sa judiciary? aron makasabot ka.

iabolish na lang na siya kung ganahan man gani tag pinatyanay nga gawas sa balaod. please read some of my previous posts to prevent redundancy.

@gareb Hoy, ayaw gamita ang ka init sa ulo. Kung i abolish nimo ang trial courts kay dunay pinatyanay gawas sa balaod. Daghan mawad an ug trabaho. Unya dili man kana ray trabaho sa korte.

oh yes, CRIME DOES NOT PAY. but are you aware that by supporting these series of suimmary executions, you actually are supporting a crime?


@gareb Is it a crime if the law enforcers merely IMPLEMENT the law?

and tell me, who will prevent these vigilantes from killing innocent people? and just in case naay maangol, kinsay manubag?

@gareb Hoy, kanang hunter team ba. Duna man na silay lista sa mga criminal. So kung wala kay criminal record, dili ka angay mahadlok. Unya ang kanang ilang targets kay multiple offenders man na dili na mga amateurs or first timers. Ang kanang maangol, ang mayor nay manubag ana. Before he made the decision to form the team. Do you think he did not take that into consideration? Sure there is a risk nga duna gyuy maangol dili man na 100percent foolproof ang plano. But the mayor took a calculated risk that there is only a very slim chance nga dunay maangol.
He made the decision and he is willing to face the consequences of his decision. That decision is for the good of the majority of his constituents. Which scenario do you want? Mamalhin ang mga civilians from Cebu to other places kay nahadlok sa mga criminals.or Mamalhin ang mga criminals from Cebu kay nahadlok sa hunter team? Bottom line if you were in the Mayor's shoes, who would you rather have? the law abiding citizens or the criminals? It's as simple as that.

peace

[crinkle]

*whew! that was long...

i'm learning so much from the previous page alone... but i still think Cebu needs this Hunter/Tracker Team right now.