RELIGION

[soulshocked]

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OT: Oh so true! No one can pluck him out of my father's hand.. (or something like that..) Are you Baptist or something?

Well sometimes we question our salvation if we are truly saved because we usually go back to our old habits. But eternal security is clearly stated in His word..BUT. THIS IS NOT A LICENSE FOR US CHRISTIANS TO ABUSE THIS PRIVILEGE! JUST BECAUSE OUR GOOD LORD IS WILLING TO ACCEPT US BACK EVEN IF WE ARE OH-SO-NAUGHTY-NAUGHTY-BAD DOESN'T MEAN IT'S OK TO BACKSLIDE AND REPENT BACKSLIDE AND REPENT AND REPEAT THE WHOLE CYCLE!

Try Christian Controversy over Neatvibe.com. You'll find atheists who are really good in the scriptures. Yeah, they are and they can twist them. Just make sure you know your grounds or you'd get carried away with their own superficial, one-dimensional doctrines!

[Meganda]

1. What are the traditions of the Catholic Church that separates them from other religions?

answer~ • Jesus said Matt 15:3 “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?�
Mark 7:7-9 “And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of man-the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.� “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.�
Isaiah 29:23 “There worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.� Colossions 2:8 “Don’t let others spoil your faith and joy with their philosophies, their wrong and shallow answers built on men’s thoughts and ideas, instead of what Christ has said.�
Luke 20:46 “Beware of teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes�





2. There are certain Saints that are used for certain prayers, like the Saint of lost articles and such, why do they name them like that?

answer • Deut 18:10-11 “Let no one be found among you who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord�.

• Leviticus 19:31 “Give no regards to medium and familiar spirits; do not seek after them.�




3. I’ve read where people pray to Pope John Paul II for guidance and even loved ones that have passed away. Is this ok?


answer~ • 1Tim 2:5 “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus�. Then we see Jesus telling us to go to “Him� for things no one else. John 14:13-14 “ You can ask for anything using My name and I will do it for this will bring Praise to the Father because of what I, the Son, will do for you. Yes, ask anything using my name and I will do it.�




4. What is the prayer to Saint Michael the archangel?

answer~ • Colossians 2:18 “Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels�.





5. With Mary being the Mother of Jesus, can I pray to her asking her to pray to Jesus on my behalf?

answer~ • 1Tim 2:5 “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus�. Then we see Jesus telling us to go to “Him� for things no one else. John 14:13-14 “ You can ask for anything using My name and I will do it for this will bring Praise to the Father because of what I, the Son, will do for you. Yes, ask anything using my name and I will do it.�

• Deut 18:10-11 “Let no one be found among you who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord�.

• Leviticus 19:31 “Give no regards to medium and familiar spirits; do not seek after them.�





6. What is the prayer “The Hail Mary� for?

answer~ • Matt 6:7-13 “And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think they will be heard for their many words.�





7. What are the books of the apocrypha and are they inspired by God?

answer~ • Rev. 22:18-19 “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.�

• They say in one of the added book of the Apocrypha, “There had not been such great distress in Israel since the time prophets ceased to appear among the people�. Proving the books are not inspired by God. There was about 300 years or so where God did not speak to his people. That is when these books were written. Jesus and His apostles quoted hundreds of times from the Old Testament, but they never quoted from any of the books of the Apocrypha.





8. What is the sin of Presumption?

Answer~ • 1 John 5:11-13 “And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.�





9. What is mortal sin and venial sin?


answer~ • Isaiah 59:2 “But your iniquities have separated you from God; and your sins have hidden His face from you.� Roman 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death�





10. If we never confess our sins to a priest but just on our own in prayer are we forgiven of those sins or do we have to confess to a priest to be forgiven.

answer~ • Roman 14:11 “For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.� “So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.�







11. Have you looked up any of these questions in the bible to see if it is true or have you just trusted and believed it to be truth because you hear it being preached?


answer~ • 1 Thessalonians 5:21 test all things; hold fast what is good. Acts 17:11 “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.�

[Obese Bo Ricardo]

Meganda, you're doing good. I hope you stick around in this discussion.

[Meganda]

FIRST CHRISTIANS

When I saw the words, "Catholic were the first Christians". I had to research if this is true. I have been to other sites, When I go to a catholic page... they'll defend the catholic, when I go to protestant page.. they'll defend the protestant. So where would I go to know the truth? Aha! The World History. History is neither to both sides so there.

And Here's the Result: (remember this is the History side)

Constantine , after the battle of the Milvian Bridge where he was out numbered 100 to 1 . Prior to this battle Constantine saw a great cross and the P which we see at churches around the world . He painted this P and the cross on all the shields of all his soldiers prior to the battle. Well against all odds he one , he said that he won thanks to the sign that god sent him , thus his conversion to Christianity and everything that he did for the Christian faith afterwards. He believed that the center of the Christian world should be in Constantinople . He and his wife St. Helen embraced this new religion with great enthusiasm so much that St.Helen sent out men , soldiers and priest to search the known world for the relics of all the saints , martyrs. This included the Holy grail , the cross , the remains of John the Baptist , shrouds , spear , crown of thorns , etc....

Constantine decided on something that would Change History and the Christian Religion forever.
The only way to win this cold war was to show the Christian world that Constantinople was the center of their faith , how to do this? well they already had started by collecting the relics etc.... but they needed the most important commodity , PEOPLE!

Without people Constantinople was nothing.

Constantine was wise , he knew that around the 21st to the 25th of December there was a pagan festival , the Festival of Yule : Yule is the solar festival that marks the shortest day of the year, with the sun rising and setting at its most southerly points. The winter quarter of the year runs from Samhain to Imbolc, so Yule stands at the midpoint of winter.

Now there were still people who had not converted to this new wave religion so called "Christianity" He said. Constantine decide in a stroke of brilliance that if he convinced these people that this new religion was similar in many ways to the old pagan religion he could convince them to convert.

Well after many meetings , discussions etc with there elders , it was decided they [pagans] convert and would still celebrate there festival on the 25th of December . This was great for Constantine in a short period of time his Christian population multiplied by the thousands .

He was declared a great man because he converted Pagans to Christianity. The Religion was called, "catholic" meaning "Universal". Christians (who were deceived) could travel to Constantinople and physically See or Touch the holy grail , the cross where Jesus was crucified , the crown of thorns , the bones of John the Baptist etc..... and this was only possible in Constantinople nowhere else on the world. People came from every point in the world , as they entered the gates of the city they paid a tax , they would enter the city as tourists and as the tourists of today would spend all there money there buy souvenirs , staying at motels , hotels B&B etc. They would leave Constantinople poorer than before but rich in there religious beliefs. They would spread the news to everyone else in there home town , and more people would return. This cause the treasury in Constantinople to skyrocket , it became the richest City in the world not only in money but as in Population . More population more taxes etc.... But St. Helen and Constantine knew this wasn't enough , they needed allies , countries to acknowledge that they where they true Christian Leaders of the faith. So St.Helen gave some of the relics to different nation , on one condition , support us and acknowledge Constantinople as the center of the Christian Faith. They did and countries received the relics . Germany has the bones of the 3 wise men , France had the Holy grail another country received the thorn of crowns etc......

Eventually all this worked Constantinople was the center of the Christian faith and church. As history proved later like any empire , corruption reigned and eventually all the hard work that Constantine and his wife St.Helen did was brought down by future emperors and the schism of the church.. Eventually the Power that the eastern church dictated was transferred to Rome to what we know today. His victory at the Milvian Bridge counts among the most decisive moments in world history, while his legalization and support of Christianity and his foundation of a 'New Rome' at Byzantium rank among the most momentous decisions ever made by a European ruler. The fact that ten Byzantine emperors after him bore his name may be seen as a measure of his importance and of the esteem in which he was held.

Martin Luther However read the Bible and told the priests that some of what they are preaching is wrong. But they kicked out Martin Luther and thus Protestantism was born. For Martin Luther never stopped sharing the "Full-gospel" to other people.


DEVELOPMENT OF CATHOLIC DOCTRINES

End of 2nd Century = presbyters first called priests by lucian
End of 3rd Century = Sacerdotal mass started by Cyprian
About AD 300 = Prayers for the dead
About AD 300 = Making the Sign of the cross
About AD 320 = Wax candles
AD 373 = Veneration of angels and saints, and use of images
AD 394 = The mass celebrated daily instead of Sundays only
AD 431 = Exaltation of Mary as "Mother of god"
AD 500 = Priests wearing special vestments
AD 526 = Extreme Unction (anointing of the sick) as a sacrament
AD 593 = The Doctrine of Purgatory (by Gregory I)
AD 600 = Latin to be used in worship
AD 600 = Prayers addressed to mary, angels and dead saints
AD 610 = First time for the bishop of Rome to be called "POPE"
AD 709 = Kissing the pope's feet
AD 750 = The pope declared a state sovereign by pepin
AD 786 = Veneration of crosses, relics and images of saints
AD 850 = water, blessed by a priests becomes "holy water"
AD 890 = Special veneration of st. joseph the foster-father (jesus)
AD 927 = beginning of the college of cardinals (election)
AD 965 = church bells first baptized by pope john XIII
AD 995 = canonization of dead saints by1 pope john XV
AD 998 = fast and abstinence from meat on Fridays of lent
11th Century = Mass as a sacrifice & grave obligation
AD 1097 = Obligatory celibacy for priests and bishops
AD 1090 = The rosary introduced (adopted from pagans)
AD 1184 = Inquisition instituted by the council of Verona
AD 1190 = sales of Indulgences
12th Century = Doctrine of the seven sacraments
AD 1215 = Transubstantion defined by pope innocent III
AD 1229 = Bible on "index of forbidden books" for layman
AD 1251 = Use of scapular devised by simon stock of england
AD 1414 = The cup (consecrated wine) forbidden to the laity
AD 1215 = Secret confession of sins to a priest instead of God
AD 1439 = Purgatory defined a dogma at Council of Florence
AD 1545 = Traditions of equal authority with the bible
AD 1546 = Apocryphal books declared canonical and added
AD 1560 = New creed in place of apostolic creed by pope pius IV
AD 1854 = Immaculate conception of mary ( major dogma)
AD 1864 = Syllabus of errors proclaimed by pius IX
AD 1870 = Infallibility of the pope defined a major dogma by pius IX
AD 1950 = Assumption of mary body and soul by pius XII
AD 1965 = mary proclaimed mother of the church by paul VI
20th Century = Mystery of Light in honor of mary.

... and the BIble said that Jesus is the same, today, in the past and forever :P and the Bible tells us in Revelation (Do not add anything) so what did the Catholic church did? Did they add some teachings? They did.

[Meganda]

Roman Catholicism teaches that salvation is available only through the Catholic church:

"The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: 'For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.'" Pg. 215, #816

Here, the 1994 catechism reaffirms the existing teaching of Vatican II, that salvation can be obtained only through the Roman Catholic church. The catechism leaves no doubt that the Catholic church is necessary for salvation:

"...all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation..." Pg. 224, #846

Past popes have taught this doctrine, as have previous catechisms and church fathers. Here is but one example…

On May 7, 2001, Pope John Paul II told 2,000 youth gathered at the Greek-Melkite Cathedral of Damascus that "you cannot be a Christian if you reject the Church founded on Jesus Christ."1

Catholic friend, you personally may not believe this, but your pope does. And it is an official doctrine of your religion.

If you check God's Word on this subject, you will not find a single verse requiring one to go through a church to be saved. In fact, the opposite is taught:

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

When Jesus died on the cross, He paid the full price for the sins of all mankind. According to God's Word, anyone can go directly to Him for salvation. Jesus Himself announced that:

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36

Jesus preached:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life…" John 5:24

"He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47


Jesus repeats this message in John 3:16, 3:18, and 6:40. If the Catholic church really is necessary for salvation, then Jesus Christ is a liar.

The Apostle Paul gives step by step instructions on how to be saved:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10

Notice, no church is required. So if Catholicism is right, then the Apostle Paul is also a liar. And since he wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is a liar as well.

"But as many as received (trusted in) him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." John 1:12

John says you become God's child by believing in Jesus Christ. If this Catholic doctrine is true, then John's name must be added to the list of liars.

But John is not a liar. Jesus never requires a church for salvation:

"To him (Jesus) give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts 10:43

The key is belief in Christ, not a church:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth…" Romans 1:16

According to Paul, Timothy needed faith in Christ to be saved, not a church:

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." 2 Timothy 3:15

When the Philippian prison guard asked Paul, "What must I do to be saved?," did Paul answer, "You must become a member of the Roman Catholic church?" No, he responded:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved…" Acts 16:31

Remember when Jesus was hanging on the cross? The thief on the cross next to Him cried out:

"…Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." Luke 23:42

When that dying sinner uttered those words of faith, Jesus responded by saying:

"To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43

Salvation is in Christ… not in a church.

The catechism claims salvation comes "…through Christ's Catholic Church alone…" But God's Word says it is obtained through Jesus Christ:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

"… God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him." 1 John 4:9


Only Christ can offer us salvation because He alone shed His blood for us:

"Much more then, being now justi-fied by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." Romans 5:9

No church can offer salvation. Only Jesus can:

"Neither is there salvation in any other (except Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:10, 12


Conclusion

Since the Bible and Catholicism clearly disagree, here are some questions you must answer:

• If the Catholic church is necessary to escape hell and reach heaven, would not God have clearly stated it in His Word… at least once?

• Why would Jesus repeatedly lie by saying that salvation is available through faith in Him?

•Are you willing to call Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John all liars? For your religion to be right, you must.

• For centuries, Bible believing Christians have contended that this unbiblical doctrine was created to keep members in bondage. Was it?

• Lastly, you must again answer the question, "Which will I obey and serve, the traditions of men, or the Word of God?" You cannot say "both" because each says the other is wrong.

Someday you will stand face to face with Jesus Christ. You will look Him right in the eyes. You might want to start thinking about how you are going to tell the Lord that you rejected His teachings and obeyed the traditions of sinful men because you assumed He was lying.

"For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men…" Mark 7:8

[Obese Bo Ricardo]

Keep going girl! Go! Go! Go!

And likewise for Von-X! Or Richard. I hope you guys stick around.

[n`gel]

Let's study history and know how it came to be:

Christianity begins with Jesus of Nazareth in the first-century Palestine. We know the story right?

After Jesus death and resurrection, where did the Apostles go?

"Christian History Institute"

The New Testament gives us an account of the deaths of two of the apostles --Judas and James.

Judas, who betrayed Christ for thirty pieces of silver, committed suicide by hanging himself.

James, the son of Zebedee, was put to death by the sword, probably beheaded in Jerusalem around 44 AD. According to tradition, he died after preaching the Gospel in Spain.

Andrew is reported to have journeyed to Scythia, the region north of the Black Sea, now part of the Soviet Union. More certain is his preaching in Asia Minor (modern day Turkey) and in Greece where he was said to have been crucified.

Thomas, ?doubting Thomas,? was most probably active in the area east of Syria. Tradition has him preaching as far east as India where the ancient Marthoma Christians revere him as their founder.

Philip, so tradition records, preached the Gospel in Heirapolis in Asia Minor where he converted the wife of the Roman proconsul. In retaliation, her husband had Philip arrested and cruelly put to death.

Matthew, also known as Levi, is credited with writing the Gospel that bears his name. Different traditions place him preaching the Gospel in areas as far apart as Persia and Ethiopia.

Bartholomew, too, had widespread missionary travels attributed to him by tradition: to India with Thomas, back to Armenia, and also to Ethiopia and southern Arabia. There are various accounts of how he met his death as a martyr.

James, the son of Alpheus, is one of at least three Jameses referred to in the New Testament, and there is some confusion as to which is which. But this James was reckoned to have ministered in Syria, and the Jewish historian Josephus says he was stoned and then clubbed to death.

Simon the Zealot, so the story goes, went to Persia and was killed after refusing to sacrifice to the sun god.

Matthias was the Apostle chosen to replace Judas. Tradition sends him with Andrew to Syria and to death by burning.

The Apostle John is perhaps the only one of the company thought to have died a natural death from old age. He was the leader of the church in the Ephesus area and is said to have taken care of Mary, the mother of Jesus, in his home. During the persecution in Domitian's reign in the middle 90?s, he was sent into exile on the island of Patmos in the Aegean. There he is credited with writing the last book of the New Testament, the Revelation of John.

===============================================

But for the two apostles, Peter and Paul, we have more information that is considered reliable.

After the resurrection, Peter was reinstated by the risen Lord to the sea of Galilee. From then on Peter was considered the rock, the pillar of the early church.

The Apostle Paul was not one of Jesus 12 disciples but claimed that Jesus himself had appeared to him on a road in Damascus, but he was almost certainly the greatest missionary of the Christ.

The Apostles weren't accepted, they were persecuted, stone to death, sworded, but they continued to spread the good news with great courage. After the death of the Apostles, and after the apostle Paul, there were no records of more missionaries in the likes of him. The faith, although, was carried on by those they have taught and their missionaries. During the time of Nero, the faith was considered as a deprived and evil religion that was a threat to both the state and the people.

If we are to understand early Christianity, miracles are attested right from the beginning of the movement. Jesus performed miracles, and through His message of the good news, He left those who believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit. And his Apostles performed them even when He wasn't around anymore.

Back then, it was called faith... no dogma (no irrevocable authority like the church today). See Richard, religion was created by man. One of the purposes of religion was to control man so there's peace.Â* And yes, money is consolation.

Peter was the Apostle, the rock, the pillar of Christian faith, but he wasn't the one who built the church made of stone, the Catholic Church. It took 300 years after his death. The faith was passed on by generations.

The Biblical Canon
In tracing the origin of the Bible, the earliest known was AD 325 when Constantine the great called the first council of Nicea composed of 300 religious leaders. They decided and picked books that would give authority to the new church. They burned the other books.

And the Bible we have now has been re-compiled at least twice by the Vatican, to suit Catholic doctrines.

Now, religion is not bad. In fact, religion is suppposed to unite people in fellowship through faith. But, to keep up with the times, contemporary church is not as much, and never is like, during Jesus, or during Peter and Paul's time. The Catholic church don't talk about the cathecism or evangelization through the Holy Spirit very often to church goers. They consider this a very important and fragile aspect of faith for not all spirits are of God's. Some say they can heal but themselves don't live a blessed and righteous lives.

Richard79, in these times, you'll find in-depth faith in the Catholic or other religions under CHARISM, not in Sunday masses.

------------------------------------------------------------------
The Vatican evolved Christian faith and catered to what they want the people to believe. Re-compiled the books in the Bible to which bases? That we do not know.

Man is liable to his own doings. It will be rude awakening to church leaders for teaching their people to give to the church wherest it was never mentioned in the Bible that God said give to the church, but mentions many times to give to the poor.

Matthew 19:21 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven'. Â*

"Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me."

If we start giving to the poor instead of the church, we could have helped countless of poor children and families.

/sigh. Pag preacher nalang Richard and spread the good news, the right one that is.

[s.n.m.p.]

Ngano , man diay ug mohapit ko ug lain, GIDILI diay na. Â*Kamo ra man mga protestante himo himo ana doktrina. Sala diay na kung di ko modiretso?

Sala diay na magpatabang ka ug ampo sa mga nahilangit na? Â*Kung sundon nato imo rasun then di na diay ta pwede ask sa ato friends to pray for us kay anyway pwede ra man ka mag ampo para sa imong kaugalingon?

The more the merrier di ba? Â*The more nga naay mag pray dito sa langit for you, the better. Â*Mabaw man gud ang pagsabot sa mga protestante about sa mga santos. Â*They think they are rivals of God. Â*They are just servants of God and asking their intercession is not praying another God but asking God to be closer to us.

Usahay sa pagka literal nila mo interpret sa Bible, mahulog sa illogical ang ilang (borna again) Â*mga teachings.


__________#########

yah..it is indeed wrong..coz if u know the essence of God..one of that is God is a jealous God...and makatawa ko kung magpatabang ka ug ampo na mahilangit?sorry... no body can help u wid dat..it wudnt be answered jud..strong jud akong pag tuo o na dili ma answer know why..it wud matter wid the heart man gud..and ur faith..bisan mag dagkut pa ka ug candle everyday..it wudnt change...its ur faith and Â*ur relationship wid God...

and bout sa imong giingon na doctirina sa protestante..sorryy im not a protestant ...actually wla koi religion...kidding..and hope na kung magused mo ug scriptures na ika support pls..check if na correct sad ang Â*significant Â*from old to new testament..

Matt 9:14 Then the disciples of John came to Him, saying, Why
do we and the Pharisees fast much, but Your disciples do not
fast? (15) And Jesus said to them, The sons of the
bridechamber cannot mourn as long as the Bridegroom is with
them, can they?
John the Baptist dropped the old religion and began his
ministry in the wilderness outside of religion. However, after
a short time, his disciples formed a new religion to frustrate
men from enjoying Christ, just as the Pharisees in the old
religion did. John the Baptist's ministry was to introduce men
to Christ that Christ might become their Redeemer, their life,
and their all. However, some of his disciples drifted away
from his goal, Christ, to some of John's practices and turned
those practices into a religion. To be religious means to do
something for God without Christ. To do anything without the
presence of Christ, even though it is scriptural and
fundamental, is religious. Both the disciples of John, the
new-timers of religion, and the Pharisees, the old-timers of
religion, fasted much, yet without Christ. They did not own
Christ as the Bridegroom, but made fasting a matter of
religion. Meanwhile, they condemned the disciples of Christ
who did not fast, but had Christ with them and lived in His
presence.

To have a religion is to worship God, to serve God, and to do
certain things to please God, yet without Christ. A religion
is anything you do for God without the Spirit, without Christ.
The Pharisees did a great many things for God, but Christ was
not in them. They did many things to serve God, but they did
them without the Spirit. Now the disciples of John the Baptist
were fasting without Christ, without the Spirit. Nevertheless,
this fasting was for God. Hence, they formed another religion.

ha ha ha ha. Dili to-ud ka protestante or born again but again just the same, you are good in quoting the Bible as other self confessed protestants. Ayaw pamakak miga. Tan awa wa nimo tubaga ako pangutana instead quote ka sa Bible without even elaborating its meaning.

Kapait aning mga born again, dagan dayun sa Bible para depensa.

Sa dihang mikayab ngadto sa langit si Jesus Christ, niingon ba siya sa iya mga apostoles, " Pag himo mo ug Bible unya mao ni sunda. Gawas sa Biblia way kamatooran." Niingon ba si Jesus ana?

Kung ato sundon inyo argumento, when man nahimoi ang bible? Di ba arounbd 70 AD? Now between 1 AD to 70Ad, way bible therefore do you mean to say nga from 1 to 70 ad way nahilangit kay way nakabasa sa biblia? Kanang Biblia account ra na sa mga evangelist sa ila nasaksihan. Ikaw kung magsulat ka ug historical or spiritual account, mahisulat ba nimo ang tanan as to exclude other information nga wala masulat nga dili tionood o wala mahitabo. Limited ra ang memory sa tawo, dili niya masulat tanan. Kadtong wala mahisulat it doesnt mean nga wala mahitabo, di ba?

How could asking my prayers from those souls in heaven destroy my faith in God or perhaps lighting a candle. Pagka illogical gyud aning mga protestante.

You say wa kay religion. Then how come you just judge others who have religion? Ahhh you born again dont consider yourselves religious coz yours is not a religion. Mao nay inyong pangilad para maka recruit ug katoliko nga huyang ang pag too.

[n`gel]

I agree with s.n.m.p about the Bible. Like I said in my previous post, several bishops and twice in the Vatican has the Holy Bible been re-compiled. It is not Jesus or God's own writing, but of people who have witnessed God's power and of divine intervention (this is honestly contestible). See, if it was really Jesus important task, He himself could have written His book himself.

There were other books that were left un-included, i think around 50 books. If we say that the authors of the books in the Bible are divinely intervened, what about the bishops who consist the Biblical Canon?

For only in the Spirit shall we truly know God. Myself mga bai, skeptic kaayo ko sa una, basa ko history sa Bible, about Jesus, but something changed it completely. Gi pray overan ko ug preacher and his wife, nabati gyud naku ang Holy Spirit, with all consciousness murang bugnaw nga hangin nisulod sa ako ulo down to my body. Hypnosis? I don't think so. It's God's power. Then, everything came into place. Dali ra masabtan ang tanan.

My father himself was very intelligent. Dili siya mosimba kay ang pare makasasala kuno. He died of cancer but knew the Spirit while he was sick.

[soulshocked]

Ngano , man diay ug mohapit ko ug lain, GIDILI diay na.Â* Kamo ra man mga protestante himo himo ana doktrina. Sala diay na kung di ko modiretso?

Sala diay na magpatabang ka ug ampo sa mga nahilangit na?Â* Kung sundon nato imo rasun then di na diay ta pwede ask sa ato friends to pray for us kay anyway pwede ra man ka mag ampo para sa imong kaugalingon?

The more the merrier di ba?Â* The more nga naay mag pray dito sa langit for you, the better.Â* Mabaw man gud ang pagsabot sa mga protestante about sa mga santos.Â* They think they are rivals of God.Â* They are just servants of God and asking their intercession is not praying another God but asking God to be closer to us.

Usahay sa pagka literal nila mo interpret sa Bible, mahulog sa illogical ang ilang (borna again)Â* mga teachings.

ha ha ha ha. Dili to-ud ka protestante or born again but again just the same, you are good in quoting the Bible as other self confessed protestants. Ayaw pamakak miga. Tan awa wa nimo tubaga ako pangutana instead quote ka sa Bible without even elaborating its meaning.

Kapait aning mga born again, dagan dayun sa Bible para depensa.

Sa dihang mikayab ngadto sa langit si Jesus Christ, niingon ba siya sa iya mga apostoles, " Pag himo mo ug Bible unya mao ni sunda. Gawas sa Biblia way kamatooran." Niingon ba si Jesus ana?

Kung ato sundon inyo argumento, when man nahimoi ang bible? Di ba arounbd 70 AD? Now between 1 AD to 70Ad, way bible therefore do you mean to say nga from 1 to 70 ad way nahilangit kay way nakabasa sa biblia? Kanang Biblia account ra na sa mga evangelist sa ila nasaksihan. Ikaw kung magsulat ka ug historical or spiritual account, mahisulat ba nimo ang tanan as to exclude other information nga wala masulat nga dili tionood o wala mahitabo. Limited ra ang memory sa tawo, dili niya masulat tanan. Kadtong wala mahisulat it doesnt mean nga wala mahitabo, di ba?

How could asking my prayers from those souls in heaven destroy my faith in God or perhaps lighting a candle. Pagka illogical gyud aning mga protestante.

You say wa kay religion. Then how come you just judge others who have religion? Ahhh you born again dont consider yourselves religious coz yours is not a religion. Mao nay inyong pangilad para maka recruit ug katoliko nga huyang ang pag too.

Let met just answer some of your questions.Â* No disrespect on your side coz ey I'm also a former Catholic and at first it's so hard to grasp this kind of doctrine.Â* First up, we need a standard and that is the Bible, right?Â* If you can't agree with me on that then there is no sense of reading this.Â* If it is not written then it is not necessary.Â* Your first issue was about praying to the saints, right?Â* 1.Â* The Bible did not mention any thing about praying to saints for help.Â* 2.Â* It says Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me.Â* Quoting on the scriptures is not a way of putting others down so that you'd feel inferior.Â* No one knowsÂ* the Bible thoroughly.Â* Even if you spend your whole life reading it, there would always something new when you re-read it.Â* I'm just making this clear because I have no reasons to put you down or make you feel less.Â* What would I benefit from that?Â* A better person?Â* No,Â* don't think so.Â* Back to your question.Â* You know the story of Lazarus and the rich man, right?Â* Â*You can browse for it on Bible.com Luke 16:25-31.Â* I am looking this up to..I am no expert on the Bible but I know some facts that are pretty much helpful with these issues. OK, in the last part of the passage the blind man asked Abraham to send the blind man back to life to tell his 5 brothers.Â* But what was Abraham's reply?Â* He said, "They have Moses and the Prophet; let them hear them.""And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."Â* The point is, if they can't hear someone who is alive, how much more someone who rose from the dead?Â* Does that resolve anything?Â* Ok, now let's talk about "Saints."Â* Try reading the letters of the apostles, it usually starts with "To the Saints of ..." or something like that.Â* Saints are not supposed to be dead people, they are living examples as Christians.Â* But the world has totally flipped it over so that people think they are people who died for the faith.Â* The truth is, if you truly have Christ in your heart you could actually call yourself a Saint.Â* With or without any permission from Rome.Â* Christ has the authority.Â* You could say "I don't give a fiddler's fart" on what they say..because I know I am saved and I don't need traditions to save me.Â* Salvation is pretty much a simple doctrine, God made it easy for us but some people think that because it is so simple they tend to doubt God's given privilege or gift.Â* So no one could question God about this.Â* This is His plan..."His thoughts are higher than ours."Â* We could not comprehend if he talks about us about heavenly things.Â* That is why he wrote the Bible with Parables, stories so that we could understand his acts.Â* Next.Â* Of course, you have to run back to the Bible for defense.Â* You're like a lawyer going to a hearing without any proof or any witness.Â* A soldier without any armor or weapon.Â*

About the Bible, true it is written by humans - capable of making mistakes.Â* But it is in fact inspired by God.Â* If it is inspired by God then it is authentic.Â* Take at look at this way.Â* RCs worship statues, right?Â* Some of them even kiss it, asks for some prayer on it because RCs believe they are from God.Â* Who made the statues?Â* Humans.Â* So just like the Bible but the difference is that there is a clear record on how the Bible was written, who were the authors and what particular subjects they try to elaborate.Â* Idols is another topic but I would not talk about this for the reason not to give more burden about the issues.Â* Let me ask you this.Â* Why would you ask for help form "others" when you could ask help directly from God?Â* Would that be more simpler and logical?Â* We don't need any intercession to God, Jesus is.Â* I am not saying I am trying to recruit you or any of the RCs to join our "religion."Â* In the first place Christianity should not be a religion, it should be included in our culture.Â* It should not be just any "thing" we do in 1 day in a week.Â* The world has deceived people that our main goal in life is to be successful, have kids, work..and whatnot.Â* The truth is these are supposed to be just secondary things next to praising God.Â* I am not saying I am excluded in this area.Â* I am too slaved by this and it's a constant battle everyday.Â* When we die, God would not definitely ask for our resume or what was our monthly salary.Â* He would probably ask, "What did you do in behalf of me?"Â* or probably "Did you ever think of me?" or something like that.Â* God did give us life for one simple reason.Â* To worship him.Â* In the end, when the Revelation will be fulfilled there are only two eternal places.Â* Heaven where you would eternally praise God or in hell where you would be eternally tortured.Â* So I guess this answers some of your questions.Â* Definitely, no disrepect on you.