MERGED: Vigilantism and related issues

[louie007]

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I like the mayor's move.. especially hapit na Sinulog.

Crimes related to theft/robbery are at its peak during these times compared to other times throughout the year.

[SPRINGFIELD_XD_40]

Kana gi buhat sa hunters at least naay results . Kung mo criticized mo na ngano ang petty crimes ra man ila gi tu-onan ug pansin , kay basin stepping stone ra na diay na siya . Sama gud sa kang DDS , nag sugod man sila sa drug users n pushers , tan-awa karon gi apil na ang smugglers and rapist and tulisan pod . Lisod ning daghan tang bright sa istorya , walay magpapildi bisan kabalo ka na commonsense ang ipadagan ana ug dili ang unsay gi tudlo sa maestro sa skwelahan .

[uzumaki]

@proc\out: cge lang poc moabot ra ang gaba anang mga tawhana, i agree with u, ang kapait gud sa uban kay ganahan man og hayahay nga trabaho nga dli man tingale sulbad sa kalisod ang mag bohat og krimen...kong wla cla malamdagi b4 cgoro panahon na basin malamdagan sila pinaagi sa polbora sa bala...ingon cla ngano man mga low profile criminals rman kasagaran ang gipang bogto? cge lang bcn moabot ra jod dli lang nato mahibaw-an na tataw og patas na ang laban way partidahay hehe

pagka nindot kon magkasinabot tang tanan og wla lang ontay krimen....peace!

[gareb]

PR0C\0UT:

dili na kinahanglan ang isa ka tawo ma-snatch iyang cellphone para siya makahibalo sa trauma nga bunga ana nga klase sa insidente. mangita man gani ta ug hustisya, ang pangutana, patay ba ang dapat?

balaod na mismo nag ingon nga dili. kung ang inyong ganahan nga hustisya ang patay nga parehas sa unsay nahitabo karon, unsa pa man diay bili sa balaod? tang-tanga na lang sad nato na.

naay sayop sa criminal justice system sa nasod. mao na ang dapat i-address, dili ang sige na lang ug pagpamatay ug tawo. trusting government officials? i duno about you, but you people are suppose to be the one who voted for them at the first place.

SPRINGFIELD_XD_40:

kung 'springboard' man kaha na siya sa mas seryoso nga krimen, nganong dili na man lang pamatyon ning mga tawhana samnatng gagmay pa silang mga bata.

so pamatyon na lang nato ang mga rugby boys nga naglakaw-lakaw sa dalan, kay kunohay mao man ni ang sinugdanan? ingon ana ba?

asa man ka dapit mag set kung kanus-a ang isa ka kriminal pwede nang patyon? kanus-a man dili?

ambot lang kung unsay diprensya sa common sense sa mga tawo pod diri nga patay ra may nakitang solusyon. para tingali nila ang pagpatay mao ray solusyon. mao tingali nay common sense para nila. bisan unsaon ug rason nga sayop na nga solusyon, aw common sense man lagi daw kuno.

magsulbad ug kriminalidad sa pag himo sa usa pa ka krimen. common sense man daw na.

[pnk_shadows]

THIS WOULD BE LONG...

Kana gi buhat sa hunters at least naay results . Kung mo criticized mo na ngano ang petty crimes ra man ila gi tu-onan ug pansin , kay basin stepping stone ra na diay na siya . Sama gud sa kang DDS , nag sugod man sila sa drug users n pushers , tan-awa karon gi apil na ang smugglers and rapist and tulisan pod . Lisod ning daghan tang bright sa istorya , walay magpapildi bisan kabalo ka na commonsense ang ipadagan ana ug dili ang unsay gi tudlo sa maestro sa skwelahan .

Think out of the box. If common sense for you is killing people just like that, I find that very disturbing. And what results are u referring to?? If one of those people was slaughtered in front of you, i guess you will clap in jubiliation because you think he deserved it. Have we ever considered WHY the "vigilantes" have to do that? Why do we always want THE QUICKEST "SOLUTIONS?" How sick can this society get??

Again, we should always try to think out of the box. Sometimes, what seems to be the "right" thing to do AT THE MOMENT might not be the best answer there is. Also, this is not about who's bright or who has stubborn pride. This is reality. These are strong emotions and convictions we are fighting for, not a flamboyant display of intellectual prowess. Because of these discussions, I have stepped out of the gray area. If some people will find it hard to believe that we do not think the same way they do, then there is nothing i can do about it.

I see that these summary killings are the only the "temporary" solution that our bright mayor has thought of to clean up cebu city. it shows our government's (and we aint excluded here) lack of control already of its branches. The solution is so slow to implement, but at least making a clean start would do. Now they've added up another problem. How long will this social reform last??

our society is sick, and killing people makes it even more sick. It promotes fear, fear that does not extinguish evil but merely suppresses it for a short period of time. If we read more about how punishment and reinforcement (behavioral psych) works, we will understand better. You see, this is like an iron hand doing the spanking, and we wouldnt feel it til it is out of control already. IT IS A VERY DESPERATE "SOLUTION" BECAUSE HE OR THEY HAVE TROUBLE IMPLEMENTING THE LAW AS TO HOW IT SHOULD BE.

People favoring these killings only show how dissatisfied they are with our justice and law enforcement systems. You might have just come to your last resort already which is killing those who cannot be contained inside the can. This is not really the best solution. This is a desperate solution. If we insist on this, what purpose would our LAWS serve? If everybody will think the same way, what will become of our society? Do you think this kind of mentality will only be within the context of criminality and its punishments?? Do you think other evil people will pass on this "opportunity" to conceal their own crimes? I dont think so.

A group of people or at least one man is rising above the law and we do nothing about it. It is like proving these people guilty first and then their plight for innocence would be heard later on when they're dead. It will not only be criminals. If this goes on, INNOCENT LIVES WILL ALSO BE CLAIMED AS A PRICE FOR OUR SUBMISSION. THIS UNAUTHORIZED POWER WILL BE ABUSED, AND THIS WILL CREATE ANGST AND PARANOIA IN THE SOCIETY. I could just be walking down cebu city and suddenly witness the person in front of me being gunned down by people in motorcycles, just like how the families of some of these murdered people saw before their very eyes how their relative was killed. how much more damage can we inflict upon our own minds, and our children's?? How much farther backwards can we go?

THIS IS NOT ONLY UNJUST BUT THIS IS ALSO UNFAIR. Who are these people to judge who should be given capital punishment and who should be spared? THEY ARE KILLING "CRIMINALS" WHO CAN JUST BE KILLED ANYTIME WHILE THEY CAN BARELY TOUCH THOSE WHO DO THE REAL HEINOUS CRIMES TO THE SOCIETY&TO OUR FUTURE. And do you think these BIG TIME CRIMINALS' BALLS SHIVER AND SHRINK IN FEAR OF THESE VIGILANTES? NO. They're comfortably perched so high up that when these vigilantes look up and take aim, they could just drop their shit and the latter will be blinded. Unfair.

We know where the true sickness lies. We are just too weak and sick to heal the society we're a part of.

[annais]

how convenient it is for these thieves to just walk away with the money and properties that aren't theirs when the victims have bent their backs over for a pittance called salary.

while our criminal justice system seems to be endlessly investigating on these complaints, the accused, who are presumed to be innocent until proven guilty, may be plotting the next crime.

with our judicial system, whose speedy trial means that you will be long dead before you can take your oath on the witness stand, will our victims feel safe walking on the streets knowing that their case will have to take a number and the victimizers are on the loose?

oh... you are determined to lock the culprits up so you follow the due process of the law. but every move would require money, is it not? everytime your lawyer shows up, you would have to pay him, am i right? you are not just robbed once, twice or thrice... you are being robbed over and over and over again. robbed of your properties, of you safety, of your hopes to be vindicated of the crimes made against you.

these death squads have seen that they've gotta do something and they've gotta act right away... yes, they deprived the "accused" of their human rights. but lemme ask you, were they human from the very start?

all i can say is that repeat offenders need to be rid of this earth.

[tolstoi]

Its ridiculous to compare an able-bodied criminal to a disabled individual in such a way that we judge the invalid as better because he does not snatch cellphones compared to those who do. naturally, a paraplegic cannot run and so whats the use of snatching a cellphone if u get caught anyway? Better live a 'straight' life.

you missed my point here..what i mean is if this criminals are very able and can do task that even the physically handicapped people will strive hard in order to make a living then why will they still resort to petty crimes..they can work as farmers, as a balot/cigarrete vendors and any other non-technical jobs for as long as it is legal..eventhough it is not as profitable as what they currently do but at least they are making a clean living out of it...

No it's not better. its barbaric. and it is not exactly better to the communities where you will drive these people to. epitome of selfishness and don't you think?

when this criminals snatch anybody's cellphones/wallet or maybe worst when they stab this innocent people to death then isn't it barbaric??...and for the communities that these criminals will be driven into, that's already there initiative on how they'll manage the situation....

I hope your good mayor has though about this first.

Im sure the Mayor had ponder many times about the consequences and danger in creating such initiative, after all he could not have been awarded as the Most Outstanding mayor in the country if he is that dumb...He might think of this as a 'calculated risk' in which the sentiments of the people who are in favor of the move maybe overwhelming as compared to its aftermath...the current POLL result of who's In/Out will prove this one.....

Ineffective rehabilitation in our prisons. why should we not address this first instead of going around killing people?

can u give a specific jail in the world that effectively rehabilitated there prisoners?..even the most advance penetentiaries in the US could not convert a petty criminals to a law abiding, God fearing citizens..how much more in the overcrowded facilities here....

True. Plakang Guba. question is and how did you 'clean the surface'? Or perhaps it is only the surface that you cleaned and assuming that there are no dirt underneath the table.
And because you assumed that there was no dirt left there and you threw away the old 'Plakang Guba' because u deemed it worthless and a hopeless cause... without realizing that it could have been fixed.

They are not toddlers anymore whom u can still steer on the directions they'll take by promoting effective rehabilitation..it is already there mindset of doing crimes as a means of livelihood..they are hopeless individuals who dont give a damn on whatever conventional treatment instituted by the law. SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO WHACK THE UNRIGHTEOUS IN ORDER FOR THE RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE TO LIVE FREELY..

[PR0CESS0R]

@Gareb:

As I mentioned in my previous post nga sala ang pagpatay. Sala ang pagpatay, balaod sa yuta ug sa diyos. Pero ikaw mismo nakasabot sa among sentimento ngano in favor mi nga pamatyon na sila. Sayang ang kinabuhi sa taw labi na kong gigamit niya sa maayong paagi apan kining mga tawhana nga napatay, gigamit ba nila sa sakto nga paagi? Kung gi-kom² ang balaod sa mga vigilantes, tungod siguro kay nawad-an na sila ug pag-asa nga masulbad ang krimen diri sa ato.

Dili na siguro nila ma-antus magtan-aw sa subra nga aboso. Ug labaw sa tanan, ilang gilantaw nga basin kong pasagdan ang mga criminals sa ilang gipangbuhat, ang tanang lumulupyo mahadlok na mogawas sa pultahan tungod sa ilang ka mangtas nga wala na'y gikahadlokan kay ila na gi-tumban ang balaod.

Base sa kriminal records, pila man sad ka taw ang napatay nila? Nahatagan ba ug sakto nga hustisya ang ilang kamatayon?

Mao bitaw hinungdan nga dunay NPA sa atong nasud tungod kay wala sila makauyon sa pagdala sa renda sa kagamhanan.

Sakto ka nga naay sayop ang justice system sa pilipinas. Daghan kaayo nga maayong plano para molambo ang nasud apan gisakyan ug mga politiko ug ang budget unta napunta hinoon bulsa. imbis para sa proyekto.

Sakto ka nga kita nga mga katawhan ang nagpili nila. Pero, sa akong part, wala ko nakahinumdom nga mibutar ko kay sayang ang akong boto nya dili makalingkod ang taw nga akong gipili kay gidaug ang kadaghanan sa kwarta panahon sa election.

[BoyBastos]

I suggest you do not under estimate those pips who are in favor of this killings.This is reality..I hope that one of this days you will also be a Victim of this robbery,snatching even Worse,caused by this criminals you think worth saving.

you are suggesting that one needs be a victim of robbery or snatching to fully realize the need to summarily kill somebody? i am sorry but i find that rather short-sighted.

@Gareb How can you feel the anger of the victims when you have been sitting in your airconditioned place banging away at your keyboard. Try to go out sometime, and I mean take a jeepney instead of riding in your fancy cars, better yet, take a walk have some fresh air and exercise, it's good for one's health (mental and physical) and try to get a feel of how the ordinary tao goes about in his daily life to understand why they think that way. Even God came to Earth as Jesus Christ to experience what we people go through so he could understand why we go on committing sins.
I believe that men are basically born good but when their values get distorted that's when they go astray. These criminals have distorted values that is why they keep committing the same crimes over and over. Wait until you or your loved ones will be robbed or worse be murdered and you later find out that the culprit has been in and out of jail a lot of times. Then come back and tell me that you want the culprit to go through trial and be "rehabilitated" once proven guilty by the courts. Or worse being acquitted by our " Justice System " then and only then can you feel the frustration of us people who are in favor of killing the criminals? Just answer one question, who would you rather have killed, the criminals or innocent civilians? Kung imong anak bisan unsa on ug badlong dili mu patu o, unsay buhaton nimo? Di ba bunalan para makasabot?

those who had been whacked were proven notorious criminals and they were even going in and out of jail before they were meted with death...

all of em? and you are suggesting that these 'notorious criminals' be summarily executed, just that, because they happen to be identified as such. no need to go to trial courts.

@gareb These criminals have been to trial courts and been proven guilty many times before that even the stenographers know them on a first name basis. They have served their sentences and were released, or paroled, or escaped from jail and gone back to their old ways. Do you think they are afraid to go back to jail knowing they could get out again in the near future? And most of these criminals do not steal because of poverty, they steal because they are lazy. They don't steal because they can't eat or put food on the table for their families. They steal so they can buy alcohol and pulutan and if the days earning is big, they buy shabu. Now, if you have such a kind heart for these scum. Why don't you adopt one of these. Invite them to your home and share your blessings with them so that MAYBE they can be reformed by YOU and they become productive members of society and shout for all to hear that " I was lost but now I'm found, I used to be a criminal but I was reformed by kindhearted Gareb who took me under his wings and gave me another chance after I have been jailed 4 times for committing the same crimes "
Why don't you try that. And if you succeed then we who are in favor of killing criminals would bow down before you, treat you like a god, and maybe even vote you as President to replace GMA.


those of who who suggest summary excecution is the way, also better suggest that courts be abolished too. they serve no purpose whatsoever in this vision of a bloodlust society that you people seem to advocate.

@gareb Why abolish the courts? Mao ra ba diay nay function sa courts? To try criminals? what would happen to our society? katung nangisyu ug cheke na nanguntol dili na ma priso? ang magpa annul sa ilang marriage? Daghan man ug gamit ang trial court dili man kana rang pag priso sa mga snatcher ug tulisan. Kung gusto ka ipa abolish and courts kay according to you " wala nay justice para sa mga tulisan ". That, my friend is being short sighted.

actually, i am just giving a humane advise to them if they still value their miserable lives...but if they like to venture here for long then this garbages must prepare for there upcoming incinaration so that they will not stink anymore...

to be 'humane' is a complete contradiction of what you are advocating, friend. after you kill their ilk, and supposedly drive them away out of sheer fear that they'll be next in line in your 'incineration machine', you call driving them away to, in your own words, victimize other places and to 'start their ventures anew'.

i hope you realize that, by your own words, you are not solving the problem. you are only transplanting it into other places, and postponing your worst fears.

so your LONG term solution is putting them in trial and convicting them, then in a year or two they will be out again and back to business??....or how bout whacking them nalang hinuon!

well, yes. but not as simplistic as you put it. i agree with your distrust in the supposed 'rehabilitation' these felons get. and, mind you, it isnt exactly rehabilitation that they get inside. the problem of criminality, if you are aware, is not just a matter of crime and punishment. refer to my next post for this.

@Gareb The problem of criminality is that, sometimes it pays and the pay is good. That's why you need to instill this thought into their brains " CRIME DOES NOT PAY !!! ". If you choose to make a career in crime you must be willing to face the consequences of your decision.

i'll better be fooled by the mayor rather than be a victim of petty crimes..

then you will have a lot to suffer for. maybe not in the immediate future, but rest assured, lions who have been trained to eat human flesh could sometime turn to the very hands that feed it.

@Gareb These criminals are the lions that you are referring to. If you don't believe me, try to be good to them invite them to your home for rehabilitation sessions and try to see if they will reform.

and mind you..., only 'petty crimes?' [/quote]

[BoyBastos]

for BoyBastos, Ian_C and tolstoi

my point in mentioning the so called 'dynamics of crime' is to impress the idea that to solve the problem of criminality, we first must know what we are dealing with. only in understanding fully how criminality happens in the first place can we administer apropriate solutions, which are not quite (and does not even come close to) the desperate call for allowing summary executions.

@gareb Who are you trying to impress boy, the people who sympathize with the masses? You sound like those old grandstanding politicians forming those committees and hearings " in aid of legislation "
By the time you finish trying to understand how criminality happens, how many victims will there be? Desperate times call for desperate measures. Not just a lot of people blowing hot air and wasting a lot of saliva arguing about the pros and cons.

granted that criminality is a social problem, the solution can also be found somwhere within the society. criminality arises from particular social arragements; how well society defines goals (wealth, prosperity) and how accessible are they (by means of schooling and education, job opportunities etc.)

I agree with you on this. But while you are still looking for the solution we need to see some action. What you have is a good long term solution, but for the meantime we need a short term solution.

the path to 'conformity' is achieving the said goals through approved means. a 'success story' then is someone who actually gains a high standard of living through hard work and talent. but not everyone who desires these goals attain them. i think u are not unfamiliar with the balooning unemployment rate, as well as the astronomical costs of placing ur kids to school. that is why people raised in poverty may see little hope in actually attaining the said goals if they 'play by the rules'. they then may seek these goals through one or another kind of crime.

@gareb solution to ballooning unemployment entrepreneurship. be your own boss be self employed. Ang tao nga maningkamot dili mapasmo.

Do you think these people rob so they can send their kids to study at Sacred Heart or San Carlos? Ooooowwwww Come on, tell that to the marines boy.

but the picture is not that simple. criminal deviance does not result simply from the lack of legitimate opportunity, but also in the availability of illegitimate opportunities. u see kids and young men growing up in criminality because it is the only alternative that they have to actually get to where they want in life. the presence of illegitimate opportunities also can be used as an explanation for your everyday corrupt politician who siphon your taxes off you and uses every available connection he can muster to maintain himself in power (if he wants to). ( http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/301/301lect09.htm )

Implement the law!!! Show them that " CRIME DOES NOT PAY !!! "


and here comes punishment. the number 1 aim of punishment of course is retribution; to 'put into balance the social scale that has been upset', people ask for blood. koykoy's 'eye for an aye...', however medieval, is a reflection of this. second is deterrence. tolstoi's wanting to drive them away to other places and/or discourage them from commiting criminal acts again, is an example of this. we have a third which is rehabilitation; a relatively recent concept arising from studies that suggest that crime sprung from unfavorable environments, and that aside from being punished, criminals should be 'rehabilitated' so that they can integrate with the society again. rehabilitation resembles deterrence in that both motivate the offender into conformity; main difference is that rehabilitation emphasizes constructive improvement. and your favorite, guys is no. 4; societal protection, which is temporary incarceration (prison) or a permanent solution (execution) aimed at protecting the society from the offenders. these, of course arise from the inability or the unwillingness of the state to remold and rehabilitate its felons.

@Gareb It is not the fault of the state if someone is unwilling to remold or rehabilitate. It is the felons themselves who are unwilling. They have been to jail and still they refuse to reform.

all of these, as you may know pass a certain formal process of the identification of guilt in the part of the accussed. disregard this process, and you do not differ from any other ordinary criminals. and that is law.

@gareb We did not disregard the process, the process was a failure. If you do something and you don't get it right, what would you do? Of course if plan A fails you go to plan B or C or D or E. Di ba? simple common sense.

incidentally, the fact that only suspects accused of 'petty crimes' are only the ones victimized by this lust for blood tells so much of the double standard that society has for 'criminals'. as Ian_C would suggest, you have to be subjected to one of these hold-ups to actually feel for yourself the trauma. funny one does not hear about trauma when politicians are rumored to reign in millions of bucks from the public treasury. and you seldom hear anybody being prosecuted for it. clearly there is a double standard to who does the robbery.

@gareb So now you refer to these CONVICTED criminals as "suspects accused of petty crimes" Is killing a petty crime? and you refer to them as "VICTIMS" . Who are the real victims? the innocent civilians? or your beloved "SUSPECTS" ? And if you really want to go after these politicians who are " RUMORED" ( take note: RUMORED, not proven guilty by your trial courts to reign in millions of bucks from the public treasury. ) Once you prove a politiician guilty I will gladly join you in your crusade to have them jailed.

a factory owner reserves the right to close down an unprofitable factory even if it causes the loss of thousands of jobs. but if the workers commit an act of vandalism that causes the factory to close for a day, then they face criminal prosecution. in the same light, people who rally on the streets denouncing the city/national goverment of the lack os basic social services for the poor gets charged with disturbing the peace. presidentiables, senatoriables, mayoralty candidates do the exact same thing during the election period, and they get extensive police protection. clearly there is something wrong here.

so there you have it. before you go on ranting about these 'criminals' of yours, see first why they have become criminals, what maintains them to be such, and how (un)effective the so called 'rehabilitation centers' which does no such thing as rehabilitation and does not even come close. the very standard that you follow on who is in your hit list or not (small fries and big fishes respectively). the justice system that you mock. and even some of the very laws that you supposedly follow.

@gareb So there you have it, before you go shedding crocodile tears for you beloved "VICTIMS" , and while your trying to see why they have become criminals, and what maintains them to be such, these same people will go about their daily business of committing crimes against helpless, defenseless, law abiding civilians because we take no action against these criminals. Do I hear you sympathize with the true victims? the hapless civilians? No, not once. Maybe you have the same sense of distorted values as the criminals. Maybe ra ha? I'm not sure, so don't get mad. It's only a question, not an accusation.