RELIGION

[oliver_g0110]

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bai grabeha ani nga topic oi!

[Obese Bo Ricardo]

Guys read this article...

http://onemediator.4t.com/whats_new.html

It's written by one of our brethren from the SVD. FYI, the "saints" are alive people meaning the holy ones. Lahi ang Biblical saints kaysa mga Saints with the capital S the canonized saints. Can they answer prayer? Read Brother Lasala's article and find out...

http://onemediator.4t.com/whats_new.html

[dacs]

old and new testament. ding!. ex. in the old testament men are required to sacrifice a lamp to praise/talk to god. in the new testament this is no longer true...

Ding!Â* God did not abolish it, bro.Â* It was made perfect through the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.Â* If your assumption is true, you are making God fickle-minded.Â* It was God who instituted the sacrifice of animals and approved the laws governing them.Â* It was He who wanted the Temple and who commissioned a whole tribe to minister to its needs.Â* Christ never claimed to abolish the Mosaic law; instead, He specifically stated the He will perfect it.

i am sorry but this is against your own rules. God said every man is equal in his eyes. are you saying that God is giving certain favors to saints?, doesnt it make man even farther to god?. so does saints serves as "fixers" so you get faster replies to god?. does god listen lesser to ordinary human than saints?.

You mean Job (in Job 42:8) is just a 'fixer'?Â* No, God commanded that Job is the one that should intercede for his friends Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar.Â* Did it brought the men farther from God?Â* No.Â* It is your way of thinking that brought you away from a practice approved by God.Â* Look at this prayer:

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

What is the difference?Â* Catholics are asking for the mercy of Christ.Â* Yet, we are only asking Mary to pray for us.Â* In that prayer (which is so common among Catholics), what power do we associate to Mary?

believing is not the same as doing, so why pray to saints?. what power do they have when they are just the same as everyone else as humans.

Thank you, bro.Â* You have just implied that faith does not automatically results to good works.Â* Who ever told you that saints have powers in and of themselves?Â* Catholics do believe that whatever intercessory power they have is because God worked through them - because they have found favor with God.Â* Please do not put yourself at the level of the saints.Â* Name one saint whose life exactly reflects your own.

doesnt this contradict "1 Timothy 2:5 says that there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus." ?

We call the saints as intercessor - not mediators.Â* That is why the prayer we address to them are called intercessory prayers.Â* So, I believe you have never prayed over anybody before because that would be like you are 'mediating' between man and God.Â* If any of your loved ones are sick, do you pray for their recovery?Â* Then you are 'interceding' - as we Catholics put it - for your loved ones.Â* How valid can intercessory prayer be?Â* Very valid indeed and very biblical.

so what is their part? in your worship?

What?Â* Have you not read?? They have value only insofar as they reflect or stimulate the interior spirit of worship.Â* During the Mass, there is never any reference to these statues - unless it is the feast day of that saint.

A thought just came to my mind.Â* Do you know whose the greatest image-maker?Â* God.Â* He made us in His own image and likeness.

how do you know that this is the face of jesus or mary?. why do you need a representation when you did not see him?

How do you know it is not?Â* Jesus Christ limited His ministry within Israel and its environs.Â* Mary, on the other hand, travelled farther.Â* The Bible tells us that she was with John at Ephesus(?).Â* Tradition - not Sacred Traditions - tells us that her last earthly dwelling place was in what is now known as Turkey.Â* Modern artists painted the face of Christ with the available information in their disposal including (but not limited) ancient stone impressions.Â* That is the area of sacred iconography(?).

Why do we need a representation when we did not see Him..?Â* It probably never occurred to you to ask for picture of someone you have chatted with in Chikka, but a number of people have.Â* Why do people keep pictures of loved ones long dead?Â* It's in the psyche of a person, I think.Â* I have a quote of how St. Thomas Aquinas explained this, but I don't have it right now.Â* Sorry.

are you saying that statues serve as a transmitter or antena to gods power? still i do not understand why you need the statue inorder to get healed.

"jesus turned and saw her. "Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was healed from that moment."
the woman was healed by her own faith. jesus did not do anything to heal her. and the situation was different cause jesus was actually wearing the cloak. is jesus holding the statue?. has he blessed the statue? has he blessed the hand who made the statue?.

It may be that you refuse to understand.Â* Yes, the woman was healed but after she acted on her faith and was healed through the cloak as the instrument of healing.Â* Have you never read that Jesus spit on the ground and use that earth with spit to heal a blind man?Â* He could heal someone by just saying so.Â* Nevertheless, he sometimes use things or people (just as with Paul when Paul was blinded on the road to Damascus).Â* You have to ask 'was Jesus holding St. Paul's cloak when people are healed through it?'Â* Was the water of the Jordan river held by Christ when someone was asked to dip into it and was healed?Â* I told you : Catholics are very biblical.

please read this

All who make idols are nothing,
and the things they treasure are worthless.
Those who would speak up for them are blind;
they are ignorant, to their own shame.

10 Who shapes a god and casts an idol,
which can profit him nothing?

11 He and his kind will be put to shame;
craftsmen are nothing but men.
Let them all come together and take their stand;
they will be brought down to terror and infamy.

12 The blacksmith takes a tool
and works with it in the coals;
he shapes an idol with hammers,
he forges it with the might of his arm.
He gets hungry and loses his strength;
he drinks no water and grows faint.

13 The carpenter measures with a line
and makes an outline with a marker;
he roughs it out with chisels
and marks it with compasses.
He shapes it in the form of man,
of man in all his glory,
that it may dwell in a shrine.

14 He cut down cedars,
or perhaps took a cypress or oak.
He let it grow among the trees of the forest,
or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow.

15 It is man's fuel for burning;
some of it he takes and warms himself,
he kindles a fire and bakes bread.
But he also fashions a god and worships it;
he makes an idol and bows down to it.

16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire;
over it he prepares his meal,
he roasts his meat and eats his fill.
He also warms himself and says,
"Ah! I am warm; I see the fire."

17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol;
he bows down to it and worships.
He prays to it and says,
"Save me; you are my god."

18 They know nothing, they understand nothing;
their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see,
and their minds closed so they cannot understand.

19 No one stops to think,
no one has the knowledge or understanding to say,
"Half of it I used for fuel;
I even baked bread over its coals,
I roasted meat and I ate.
Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left?
Shall I bow down to a block of wood?"

20 He feeds on ashes, a deluded heart misleads him;
he cannot save himself, or say,
"Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?"

21 "Remember these things, O Jacob,
for you are my servant, O Israel.
I have made you, you are my servant;
O Israel, I will not forget you.

22 I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,
your sins like the morning mist.
Return to me,
for I have redeemed you."

23 Sing for joy, O heavens, for the LORD has done this;
shout aloud, O earth beneath.
Burst into song, you mountains,
you forests and all your trees,
for the LORD has redeemed Jacob,
he displays his glory in Israel.

Good.Â* So, we agree that idols are abhorrent.Â* Oh, are you saying that Catholics believe that the statues are idols.Â* No way, Jose!Â* Are the graven images in the Temple constructed by Solomon idols?Â* No.Â* Are the embroidered images on the curtain inside the Temple itself idols?Â* No.Â* Are the engraved images surrounding the interior and exterior of the Temple idols?Â* No.

Bro?

jesus called abraham "father" because his human body is an ansestor of abraham. then why call the pope as holy father?.

You have read the entries, right?Â* Why did St. Paul called himself the father of those under his care?Â* Most of them may even be older than St. Paul?Â* How could that be?Â* The office of the pope is holy.Â* He is the vicar of Christ and the successor of Peter.Â* He is the visible head of the Church here on earth.Â* Yet, he is also a servant of the servants of God.Â* He acknowledges Christ as his Lord and Savior.

[dacs]

Guys read this article...

http://onemediator.4t.com/whats_new.html

It's written by one of our brethren from the SVD. FYI, the "saints" are alive people meaning the holy ones. Lahi ang Biblical saints kaysa mga Saints with the capital S the canonized saints. Can they answer prayer? Read Brother Lasala's article and find out...

http://onemediator.4t.com/whats_new.html

If I give you quotation from the witness of the Doctors and Fathers of the Church down to the first century A.D. Will you shut up on this one? I think not. You will always try to find another person who will agree with your beliefs, but Catholics have the witness of history.

Sorry, bro. You got to try harder than that.

[tolstoi]

God in the image of Jesus Christ was not here to initiate an INSTITUTION!

You either have not read Matthew 16:18 from the Bible, had no passage like this in your Bible, ignored this passage, interpret this passage differently or reject this passage as a valid part of the Bible:

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Thank you.

im sure we have the same bible coz i'm a roman catholic..and yep i am familiar wit that passage..but Jesus did not specifically said to Peter that HE was building a religion/institution coined specifically as RC/Baptist/Iglesia etc..Jesus was building a CHURCH not an INSTITUTION..fact was, PETER did not categorically said that the CHURCH he wud carry-on will be called Roman Catholic/Iglesia/Baptist/ADD..and so-on-so forth..yu can post the bible passage here if there's any...

[dacs]

im sure we have the same bible coz i'm a roman catholic..and yep i am familiar wit that passage..but Jesus did not specifically said to Peter that HE was building a religion/institution coined specifically as RC/Baptist/Iglesia etc.

QUESTION : Is Judaism an institution or a church? Can it be both an institution and a church?

If you use the word institution as something referring to custom, practice, relationship, or behavioral pattern of importance in the life of a community or society, then the Church fits right in. If you use the word as something referring to an organization founded and united for a specific purpose, then the Catholic Church fits right in - again. Ever read Matthew 16:19, 18:18? Let me quote an answer on the authority of the Church to make binding laws and rules:

Jesus told the leaders of his Church, "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" (Matthew 16:19, 18:18). The language of binding and loosing (in part) was a rabinnic way of referring to the ability to establish binding halakah or rules of conduct for the faith community. It is thus especially appropriate that the references to binding and loosing occur in Matthew, the "Jewish Gospel." Thus the Jewish Encyclopedia states:

"BINDING AND LOOSING (Hebrew, asar ve-hittir) . . . Rabinnical term for 'forbidding and permitting.' . . .

"The power of binding and loosing as always claimed by the Pharisees. Under Queen Alexandra the Pharisees, says Josephus (Wars of the Jews 1:5:2), 'became the administrators of all public affairs so as to be empowered to banish and readmit whom they pleased, as well as to loose and to bind.' . . . The various schools had the power 'to bind and to loose'; that is, to forbid and to permit (Talmud: Chagigah 3b); and they could also bind any day by declaring it a fast-day ( . . . Talmud: Ta'anit 12a . . . ). This power and authority, vested in the rabbinical body of each age of the Sanhedrin, received its ratification and final sanction from the celestial court of justice (Sifra, Emor, 9; Talmud: Makkot 23b).

"In this sense Jesus, when appointing his disciples to be his successors, used the familiar formula (Matt. 16:19, 18:18). By these words he virtually invested them with the same authority as that which he found belonging to the scribes and Pharisees who 'bind heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but will not move them with one of their fingers'; that is 'loose them,' as they have the power to do (Matt. 23:2-4). In the same sense the second epistle of Clement to James II ('Clementine Homilies,' Introduction [A.D. 221]), Peter is represented as having appointed Clement as his successor, saying: 'I communicate to him the power of binding and loosing so that, with respect to everything which he shall ordain in the earth, it shall be decreed in the heavens; for he shall bind what ought to be bound and loose what ought to be loosed as knowing the rule of the Church.'" (Jewish Encyclopedia 3:215).

Thus Jesus invested the leaders of this Church with the power of making halakah for the Christian community. This includes the setting of fast days (like Ash Wednesday).

To approach the issue from another angle, every family has the authority to establish particular family devotions for its members. Thus if the parents decide that the family will engage in a particular devotion at a particular time (say, Bible reading after supper), it is a sin for the children to disobey and skip the devotion for no good reason. In the same way, the Church as the family of God has the authority to establish its own family devotion, and it is a sin for the members of the Church to disobey and skip the devotions for no good reason (though of course if the person has a good reason, the Church dispenses him immediately). (taken from http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q019.htm)

Here are two websites which, I believe, could provide a more thorough exposition on this matter.

Cor ad cor loquitor, a blogspot by Dave Armstrong
Biblical Defense for Catholicism by Dave Armstrong

May I invite my fellow Catholic to read this book by Romano Guardini entitled The Church and the Catholic. This is a classic.

Jesus was building a CHURCH not an INSTITUTION..fact was, PETER did not categorically said that the CHURCH he wud carry-on will be called Roman Catholic/Iglesia/Baptist/ADD..and so-on-so forth..yu can post the bible passage here if there's any...

A lot of things are not in the Bible. Nevertheless, the Church came first before the Bible. In the book of Acts, the Council of Jerusalem is documented. That is how the early Church decide issues. They didn't have the Bible. In fact, they wrote the books in the Bible; not as a Bible, but as separate letters, gospels, and the Revelations of John. Yet, St. Ignatius of Antioch - the successor of St. Paul - called the Church Catholic, and it has retained that name ever since. Isn't it quite a coincidence that the disciples of Christ were first called Christians at Antioch?

"You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.�

St. Ignatius of Antioch (died 106 AD, disciple of Peter and Paul)
(Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, 8)

Now, let us hear it from a disciple of the Apostle John:

“The Church of God which sojourns in Smyrna, to the Church of God which sojourns in Philomelium, and to all the dioceses of the holy and Catholic Church in every place.�

St. Polycarp (died 155 AD, disciple of John)
(Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrnam, Preface)

Later in the same book it says, “When Polycarp had finished his prayer, in which he remembered everyone with whom he had ever been acquainted . . . and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world.� They then gave him up to wild beasts, fire and finally, the sword. The epistle then concludes, “Now with the Apostles and all the just [Polycarp] is glorifying God and the Father Almighty, and he is blessing our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of our souls, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world.�

Later, St. Augusting had this to say:

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies.�

St. Augustine (AD 354-430)
(The True Religion, 7, 12)

Finally:

“In the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep (Jn 21:15-19), down to the present episcopate.

And so, lastly, does the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.

Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should...With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me... No one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion...For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.�

- St. Augustine (AD 354-430 )
Against the Epistle of Manichaeus AD 397
[Contra Epistolam Manichaei Quam Vacant Fundamenti]

[Sovabon]

Bro Richard, way klaro ang imong purpose aning thread. In the first page, you asked for an enlightenment that why many people are so blind in their religions... In the second page you have said that... hasta ka naglibog sad sa imong relihiyon!

Pagtarong uy!

[s.n.m.p.]

@ randy:

Da mirisi.Â* Sugod sugod man ka ug hagit sa mga Katoliko kaingon siguro siya naive mi.Â* Kaubo lagi. Murag gi hurukan ug putyukan uy.Â*

Dont underestimate us.Â* Memorize lagi ninyo ang Bible but we know more about God than you ever expected.

My advice: Make the discussion more aabout sharing your thoughts about God rather than destroying the Catholic beliefs.

[randy111979]

@ randy:

Da mirisi. Sugod sugod man ka ug hagit sa mga Katoliko kaingon siguro siya naive mi. Kaubo lagi. Murag gi hurukan ug putyukan uy.

Dont underestimate us. Memorize lagi ninyo ang Bible but we know more about God than you ever expected.

My advice: Make the discussion more aabout sharing your thoughts about God rather than destroying the Catholic beliefs.

You mean Richard right? Last time I check, Catholic pa man ko. hahahahaha. And the way your handling your discussion s.n.m.p. i think you have lots to learn of being a Catholic.

Keep up everything bro, but don't forget your values. God bless.

[silent-kill]

@s.n.m.p is this the way you behave as a catholic? "na tumba pa ang taw imo pag gi luwaan"..

how do you know that this is the face of jesus or mary?. why do you need a representation when you did not see him?

How do you know it is not? Jesus Christ limited His ministry within Israel and its environs. Mary, on the other hand, travelled farther. The Bible tells us that she was with John at Ephesus(?). Tradition - not Sacred Traditions - tells us that her last earthly dwelling place was in what is now known as Turkey. Modern artists painted the face of Christ with the available information in their disposal including (but not limited) ancient stone impressions. That is the area of sacred iconography(?).

so, are you saying that the picture is jesus him self?.. can you give me a link or something... on how jesus really look like. cause ive seen lots of version of him.

i have a neighbor who was a catholic before... when she became a born again christian she burned all statues , images of jesus and saints... so did she sinned?

~is st. Niño jesus?[please answer this]

We call the saints as intercessor - not mediators. That is why the prayer we address to them are called intercessory prayers. So, I believe you have never prayed over anybody before because that would be like you are 'mediating' between man and God. If any of your loved ones are sick, do you pray for their recovery? Then you are 'interceding' - as we Catholics put it - for your loved ones. How valid can intercessory prayer be? Very valid indeed and very biblical.

~so is god giving special favors, attetions to saints, does he listen more to saints?, ?.. does it mean if more people including saints pray to god the more he listen to your prayers?. [pls answer this]

~why does catholics have repetitive prayers? didnt god tell something about repetitive prayers?, or is it more on traditions?...[pls answer]

You have read the entries, right? Why did St. Paul called himself the father of those under his care? Most of them may even be older than St. Paul? How could that be? The office of the pope is holy. He is the vicar of Christ and the successor of Peter. He is the visible head of the Church here on earth. Yet, he is also a servant of the servants of God. He acknowledges Christ as his Lord and Savior.

why is it holy, who made it holy?.. god said "many church will stand by his name but still he did not recognize them" can you prove that jesus recodnise the catholic church to be his church? [if your answer is "can you prove it is not" then it cannot be proven]. if jesus established one church and lets say it was the catholic church, does it mean all churches except catholic churches are wrong and not recognize by jesus?.,
"hebrews 9:24 For Christ do not entered into the holy places made with hands"

~if religion is not flawed. why does similar religions that believes in jesus have conflicts about each others teachings?..