Why did God create evil?

[Creed-X]

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@tolstoi....Yes he does, Gareb believed origin of evil came from god, still he believes there is god. He just told me "concept of evil that is in lucifer cannot have any origin other than that of his creator, the said concept cannot have any other origin other than god. " But i don't know what kind of god is that? All we knew God is good.

Actually yes, he just talk god as what giver_bert posted. In fact, he knew everything all about god more than we do.

[tolstoi]

if thats the case then i guess gareb is not a full pledge atheist coz from the very basic meaning of an atheist which is *someone who denies the existence of god* contradicts on what he said on this thread..well i guess he will be the only one can tell about this whole thing..

[giver_bert]

God is a righteous God..

it is easy to say that one thing is righteous or not. what is difficult is when one person's idea of what is 'righteous' does not correspond to another person's. example. which is the righteous religion? Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, or Zoroastriansm? each claim to be righteous, each claim that the rest is not. each claim to believe in god/gods.

the very concept of a 'righteous god' is full of holes. example: how can a rigteous god produce or allow evil? and because of the fact that he did allow evil, what merit then is there for him to forgive us in our errors, when he himself has facilitated the very conditions that allow us to commit the so-called 'sin'?

We can talk for hours about why God might allow evil, but all our answers do not make the pain go away... Intellectual answers do not help our gut feelings.. whatever explanations could we come out cannot make the world seem tidy and sensible - because the world is not tidy and sensible....

Right and wrong is not simply a matter of opinion --- there is an objective and unchanging standard of right and wrong, defined not by humans but by God -- and the evils that we see reported in the news are not just ideas where one person's idea is just as good as another person's idea, or one ethnic group's idea against another's... No, evil is defined by God. There has to be a God if there is going to be any definition of evil. And for reasons known best to God alone, God allows evil in this world....

We can ask why God allowed people to die --- but we also need to ask why God allows us to live... each of us has had wrong thoughts, evil thoughts, each of us has done something wrong --- something evil. Why does God allow evil within us? None of us deserves to escape punishment, and yet God allows escape, too...

If we ask why there is evil, we should also ask why there is mercy. Why should God forgive us when we do not deserve to be forgiven?

somehow our experiences with evil help shape us, help us grow in compassion, help us grow in love, and they even help us grow in faith -- precisely because they test our faith.


OK NOW TO BRING THIS DISCUSSION TO A LOGICAL LEVEL:

Are you implying my friend that not all us wanted to have freewill?

with the knowledge that freewill opened the way for us to be able to chose evil, then yes; people would rather not have freewill. ever heard yourself say, "i should have not chosen that..." ?

The problem of human evil is rooted in the nature of God and the nature of love and the nature of mankind.....

Let us consider the nature of love and its consequences... I cannot experience love from other people unless they have the capacity to do otherwise. If they have the capacity to not love me, and they choose instead to love me, then that choice has validity... it has meaning. You cannot have a love relationship with a computer. It is pre-programmed to serve you. Love requires choice: unencumbered choice... and that's where the problem lies.
When God created mankind, He too had a choice.. if He created us as beings that were pre-programmed to follow and serve Him, there could be no love. but, if He created us with the capacity of choice, the capacity to love and serve Him, and the capacity not to do so, then there is the possibility of relationship: the possibility of real love... as a personal being with the capability of creating us in the first place, it makes sense that He would want to create us as personal beings with the capability of choice (free will) and, thus, the capability of love. But where there is choice and the capability of love, there is also the capability to choose wrong and to do great evil...

therefore humanity's fall, and the death of countless lives because of evil, was within god's plan. where is the righteousness in all that?

Perhaps my friend, a real life illustration will aid us in understanding. (taken from kiononia by Dr. Mark Eastman)

__________________________________________________ _______________

During my 15 years as a physician I have seen an enormous amount of physical suffering. During that time I have had five children in my practice die by disease and injury. All of these children came from Christian families. Several months after the death of one of these children, the child's mother was in my office and was very distraught over her loss. She asked me, "Why did God allow this? I love God. Why did this happen?"

What could I say in this situation? Rather than providing an answer I asked her this question. "You have three children. One of them has died. If you could go back to the time before you had any children, with the knowledge that one of them would die this horrible death, would you have children again?"

After a long pause, with many tears in her eyes and a broken heart she said, "Oh yes. Oh yes. yes I would. Because, you see, the love and the joy and the happiness I have received from my children far outweighs the pain, suffering and misery I experienced from the loss of that one child. Oh yes. Oh yes. I would have children again."

__________________________________________________ _______________

In this tragic story we see an incredible insight as to why God allows evil to exist... as discussed earlier, a loving God can allow an evil state of affairs to exist if, in allowing it to occur, it brings about an even better state of affairs. For this woman, the loss of her child was an unequalled and tragic evil. However, with the advantage of hindsight, she said she would do it all again because the love she received as a result of being a mother outweighed the evil state of affairs in the death of her child....

In the hypothetical scenario presented to this woman, with the advantage of hindsight (foreknowledge in this case) she was in a position comparable to God's before He created humankind/world... because He is outside time and knows all things, He knew that there would be tremendous pain and suffering as a result of His decision to create a people with the capacity of choice and, consequently, the capacity to sin (moral evil).

But God, like this mother, knew that the love He and his human creatures would experience would outweigh the pain and suffering that would result from His decision to create us as He did... but the consequences of God's decision were not unforeseen.... They were basically foreknown![/b]


OT: now i can sleep :mrgreen:

[giver_bert]

if thats the case then i guess gareb is not a full pledge atheist coz from the very basic meaning of an atheist which is *someone who denies the existence of god* contradicts on what he said on this thread..well i guess he will be the only one can tell about this whole thing..

Probably one of the many skeptics/confused bro... though i have to say it's a good sign --- for someone to be sooo critical-minded with this senstive issue, it could be an indirect manisfestation at finding answers to something he subconsciously knows and purports to be as such, yet still denies it...

peace be with you!

[gareb]

Intellectual answers do not help our gut feelings..

gut feelings are not exactly concrete representations of 'absolute good' or 'absolute truth'. those things are more often than not, hunches or intuitions, which of course are subjective.

there is an objective and unchanging standard of right and wrong, defined not by humans but by God

and idealist stand such as this is easily negated by the fact that another ethic group's so-called idea of what is good may not exactly correspond to our idea of what is good. and we cannot just dimiss theirs as opinion or ours as embodying what is absolute (or vice versa). that would be ethnocentric. to define what is ours to be the embodiment of 'absolute good' that is suppose to come from above would practically render anybody's concept of good that does not correspond to ours as false. same applies to everyone.

with this we can say that the concept of what is good and what is evil is relative... or must be taken into context based on the current conditions of the person/group of people espousing what is suppose to be good or evil. good then is an adjective describing what is beneficial. evil describes what is detrimental.

bear in mind that because of the fact that societies develop not in the same manner, what may be 'good' for one may not exactly be 'good' for another. hence the disparity. hence the percieved differences in opinion. hence the relativity. hence the negation of the concept of an absolute evil or good.

precisely because they test our faith.

again, i have to reiterate that this so called 'test' is not necessary for a god that supposedly knows what will happen after the administration of the test beforehand. would you actually let go of a plate and test it if it will break into pieces even if you already know that it will?

and yet God allows escape, too... If we ask why there is evil, we should also ask why there is mercy. Why should God forgive us when we do not deserve to be forgiven?

the very idea of allowing a 'way out' and practically gloating on it renders the very act as nonsensical as possible. the conditions were placed to allow the very posibility of man to fall. and then a 'way out' is placed? for what purpose is it if evil could have been prevented at the first place? does the purpose rest on humanity attaining knowledge that 'all salvation rests in the hands of god'? or is this some kind of a sick egotistical setup designed for self-aggrandizement?

just this, if indeed all of this is based on the postulation that god loves humanity, then he would never allow us to suffer, or create the very conditions for suffering, or allow even the remotest possibility of that happening.

The problem of human evil is rooted in the nature of God.

so evil (or the concept of evil) came from god. that entirely negates the idea that 'god is good'.

but, if He created us with the capacity of choice, the capacity to love and serve Him, and the capacity not to do so, then there is the possibility of relationship

and since he supposedly did that, and the fact that he knows beforehand what is going to happen with that 'choice' of his, would rather chose to satisfy his yearning for a 'real relationship' than potentially save countless number of lives by preventing evil. quite selfish, don't you think?

but the idea that god has a 'choice' becomes incoherent by his supposed attribute of omnipotence. the act of chosing is a limiting factor that an omnipotent being supposely does not have, quite simply because he can do anything and see what he will do in the future. so you see,
:arrow: there is no need to choose, as the idea of 'chosing' does not apply to a being who knows what he will do anyway. this,
:arrow: or he simply does not possess the absolute power that we deem him to have.

a loving God can allow an evil state of affairs to exist if, in allowing it to occur, it brings about an even better state of affairs.

indeed, a state of evil may bring about a certain degree of benefits. there is no argument against this.

but to say... 'better state of affairs'? as a believer of the idea of absolute good, i think you are contradicting yourself. in an idealist perspective, there can be no better state of things that in the perfect absence of the state of evil because basically, what u have is a state of pure good. so then, again, in the context of this argument, why allow evil?

if you say 'love' then love is in opposition against good as it facilitates the very occurence of evil. and of course, as a christian, you cannot have that.

[gareb]

Its no use, that's gareb's protocol. He wants to challenge god.

nope but the very idea of the existence of an omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being.

Supposedly, What if god answer you "Yes Gareb, I created evil". What would you do then?

then, my dear friend, it would be suffice to say that god is not absolutely good as he is the originator of evil. religion, as we know it, crumbles. and that god, that fits the attributes above, does not exist.

Yes he does, Gareb believed origin of evil came from god, still he believes there is god.

nope i do not. refer to above reply.

if thats the case then i guess gareb is not a full pledge atheist coz from the very basic meaning of an atheist which is *someone who denies the existence of god* contradicts on what he said on this thread..well i guess he will be the only one can tell about this whole thing..

on the contrary, to test the logical validity of one thing, concventioanal argumentation would suggest that we the positive stand and challenge it. that is why you may notice sentence constructs "if.. then..." logical assumptions.

Probably one of the many skeptics/confused bro... though i have to say it's a good sign --- for someone to be sooo critical-minded with this senstive issue, it could be an indirect manisfestation at finding answers to something he subconsciously knows and purports to be as such, yet still denies it...

... and probably not. :mrgreen: i do not fancy myself to know fully the workings of my own subconcious (and neither should anybody) but logic would most surely overpower latent superstitious longings of blind faith if indeed there is any. at least i perceive there are none. attribution error and ad hominems may not work here.

[kuNoL]

how would you know if its good or it is bad?is there such thing ? if there is it depends on what you believe i think.... its like it is good for you but not good for them. ??

[kuNoL]

sa mailad lng

[Creed-X]

@gareb... you mean you have the will/power to perish all religion? Telling people that god answered you?

[jeanne_ml]

i am sooo amazed with the arguments of giver_bert, gareb, tolstoi, creed-x and the others... murag nakutaw napud ang akong utok kadyot mao pay daginuton ra ning utoka tsk! tsk! tsk!

anyway, sa akong pagsabot sa title sa thread, there is no question that God exists except for gareb who said he doesn't believe in it.

pero naay mga points ni gareb nga agree gyud ko, when he said:
1. "he is NOT PRESENT when evil happens" - it's simply because God is present in everything that is good. Mao bitaw nang kanta nga "great things happen when God mixed with man". Pero wa ko moingon ha nga biya-an ta sa Ginoo kung magkaleche leche atong kinabuhi (remember the footprints?). rather, it is when WE separate from Him, that our lives become miserable. parehas gud sa gisulti sa Ginoo bahin sa vine and the branches, that when the branch separates from the vine, it can do nothing. mao pud na sa tao, na when we choose not to be one with Him, ah wa gyud tay ayo bisan ika pila pa ta na mayng laki.

2. "he CANNOT CONTROL evil" - sakto kaayo si gareb ana! It's because it is us/we, who are in control. Kung ganahan gyud ta mangawat, wa gyuy Ginoo nga mopilpil sa atong kamot! Parehas ra pud na sa tinuhuan (although I am not saying ha nga not believing in God is evil), ang uban motuo ug Ginoo, ang uban dili….nya sala diay na sa Ginoo kung naay mga tao nga di motuo nga ni exist siya? Dili baya! Kita ra gyuy nagkontrol sa atong utok ug kasingkasing. Kita ra gyuy nagbuot. Mao nga agree pud ko sa gisulti ni giver_bert nga naa tay free will….Kanang diayng magpaka-adik ka ug post diri sa istorya - exercise baya na sa imong free will! (hehe...murag daghang igo adto dah!)


pero wa lang ko ni agree ni gareb when he said:
1. "still, as the concept of evil that is in lucifer cannot have any origin other than that of his creator, the said concept cannot have any other origin other than god…." - kaning pagka istoryaha ni gareb, pwerteng kalawom (makaingon gyud ko nga bright gyud ni siya). Atong simpolon ha… Kon ako magahimo ug kutsilyo, buot ba nako or intention ba nako nga gamiton kana sa pagpang dunggab? pwede baya ni nako gamiton sa pagtadtad ug lamas! So balik ta kang lucifer, kana siya gihimo na siya nga maanindot, maambongon nga anghel tungod kay naay nindot nga purpose ang Ginoo niya pero kay mao man lagi kita tanan naa may free will, gipili ni lucifer nga siya magpaka evil. is it God's will that he'd end up like that? No!… kani sad bitawng free will usahay ba, makaingon ko nga mao gyud niy gadala ug tigaw… pero kay ang Ginoo maayo, iya kitang gipangga, gimahal, gi adopt sad sa Ginoo ang saying nga "when you love someone, set them free". char!

2. "we need an operational definition of the concept of god" - kani bayang concept sa God noh, personal baya ni siya. Just like your relationship with God, it is personal. It is something between you and God alone. Kung para nimo, God is omniscient, all-powerful and within reach, well and good pero kung para nimo dili, aw imo sad na! Mo vary ang imong belief, ang depth sa imong relationship Niya, tanan, mao bitaw nga nagkalain lain ang atong religion… parehas ra gud na anang uyab-uyab gud! Ang imong pagtanaw sa Ginoo mura mura pud na ug imong uyab! Naay uban gatuo nga perfect para nila ilang uyab, naa puy dili! it's essentially personal.

Personally, nahimuot baya ko sa story about the child intentionally placing the ants in the water kay I never thought of God that way. Well, istorya ra man pud hinuon to noh… pero nindota kaha noh if we view the story this way, that the child came upon a basin of water filled with ants, and lend his hand so they wouldn't get drowned…pagka anindot! don't u think?

Btw, kaning akong istorya diri, mao ni ang belief nako ha! Jugo kaayo ko anang mga semantics semantics dinha!