Kinsa jud imo gituohan kung diin jud tah gikan, ang Bible or Science?

[schmuck]

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how is this to be done? hmm EASY. Be a spiritual man. the problem is, are you willing? thats the question. you always ask for proofs but when people guide you towards the path that leads to God, most of your likes would decline. Isnt that funny? no?

the proof is already out my friend. the problem lies in you but i don't blame you.

hahahahaha....WRONG flow of reasoning my friend im so sorry, *blushing...*

it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that unicorns,Vampires,FSM arent real. My God where have you been? youre a funny guy. If you think otherwise the you can't be helped.

This is very important. Why do you say unicorns, vampires and His Noodlyness the FSM aren't real?
Give specific answers.

[hitch22]

Now Science ah no no no, not Science but Evolutionists w/c most of them are Atheists and not Scientists...

Darwin's Theory of Evolution is not part of mainstream science? HERE WE GO AGAIN. It seems you've just joined the conversation. Let me just paste here AGAIN what the National Academy of Sciences say about the Theory of Evolution (read the whole article here: Is Evolution a Theory or a Fact?):

One of the most useful properties of scientific theories is that they can be used to make predictions about natural events or phenomena that have not yet been observed. For example, the theory of gravitation predicted the behavior of objects on the moon and other planets long before the activities of spacecraft and astronauts confirmed them. The evolutionary biologists who discovered Tiktaalik predicted that they would find fossils intermediate between fish and limbed terrestrial animals in sediments that were about 375 million years old. Their discovery confirmed the prediction made on the basis of evolutionary theory. In turn, confirmation of a prediction increases confidence in that theory.

In science, a "fact" typically refers to an observation, measurement, or other form of evidence that can be expected to occur the same way under similar circumstances. However, scientists also use the term "fact" to refer to a scientific explanation that has been tested and confirmed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing it or looking for additional examples. In that respect, the past and continuing occurrence of evolution is a scientific fact. Because the evidence supporting it is so strong, scientists no longer question whether biological evolution has occurred and is continuing to occur. Instead, they investigate the mechanisms of evolution, how rapidly evolution can take place, and related questions.

AND..FOR THE NTH TIME...The most elite scientific organization in the world today is the National Academy of Sciences.

The National Academy of Sciences (NAS) is an honorific society of distinguished scholars engaged in scientific and engineering research, dedicated to the furtherance of science and technology and to their use for the general welfare.

Since 1863, the nation's leaders have often turned to the National Academies for advice on the scientific and technological issues that frequently pervade policy decisions. Most of the institution's science policy and technical work is conducted by its operating arm, the National Research Council, created expressly for this purpose. These non-profit organizations provide a public service by working outside the framework of government to ensure independent advice on matters of science, technology, and medicine. They enlist committees of the nation's top scientists, engineers, and other experts, all of whom volunteer their time to study specific concerns. The results of their deliberations have inspired some of America's most significant and lasting efforts to improve the health, education, and welfare of the population. The Academy's service to government has become so essential that Congress and the White House have issued legislation and executive orders over the years that reaffirm its unique role.

The Academy membership is composed of approximately 2,100 members and 380 foreign associates, of whom nearly 200 have won Nobel Prizes. Members and foreign associates of the Academy are elected in recognition of their distinguished and continuing achievements in original research; election to the Academy is considered one of the highest honors that can be accorded a scientist or engineer.

DARWIN'S THEORY, NOT A SCIENCE? THE NAS DOESN'T THINK SO. It has been upheld unanimously in the mainstream scientific community that the Theory of Evolution is the unifying principle that binds every sub-branches of biology, from agriculture to genetics. ENOUGH SAID. Please don't bring up that lie that Evolutionary Biology is not a science. BUT I DARE SAY, CREATIONISM/INTELLIGENT DESIGN IS A PSEUDO-SCIENCE. Check this out: List of topics characterized as pseudoscience (Look under the topic of "Creation Science").

Mind you, religious belief does not have to be irreconcilable with the Theory of Evolution. I've already posted this link several times: The Vatican claims Darwin's theory of evolution is compatible with Christianity. And I've already mentioned prominent religious Christians who are believers in Darwin's Theories, namely Francis Collins (a Christian Evangelical who co-headed the Human Genome Project), Ken Miller (A Roman Catholic and a biology professor who testified against the Intelligent Design Theory in the Dover Trial), Fr. George Coyne (a Jesuit priest and astronomer) and many others.

[hitch22]

WHY I DO NOT RELY ON RELIGION FOR THE CONTINUING OF OUR DISCOVERY OF NATURE AND THE UNIVERSE...

Before there was science, religion and "ancient shamans" had all the "answers". When the welfare of the community was left entirely on their hands, the human race, on the average, barely lived beyond 40. When the question of causation was left entirely to them, we thought that plagues and terrible natural calamities were punishments from God...and numerous human sacrifices had to be made because it was believed to calm down the angry God.

They cooked up all sorts of silly beliefs. Medieval Christians used to believe that the earth was flat or that earth was at the center of the universe, and that the planets moved around the earth through the pressure exerted by the angels (now laughably known as the Theory of Angelic Pressure).

Insanity used to be thought by medieval Christians to be due to possession by devils. It was believed that any pain suffered by the patient would also be felt by the devils, so that the best cure was to make the patient suffer so much that the devils would feel too uncomfortable and abandon his body. The insane, in accordance with this theory, were therefore savagely beaten. This treatment was tried on King George III when he was mad...but unfortunately without success.

When anaesthetics were first discovered, the religious decreed that using such drug was an attempt to evade the will of God. Men were exempted from this decree, because they pointed out that when God pulled out Adam's rib, He put him to sleep first. Women, however, had to suffer because of the curse of Eve.

Benjamin Franklin's lightning rod was likewise condemned by the clergy, both in England and America. They saw it as an attempt to defeat the will of God. They believed that lightning was sent by God to punish the impious or the grave sinners. The virtuous, they say, are never struck by lightning. Therefore if God wants to strike lightning at any one, we should not defeat His will because that's tantamount to helping criminals escape.

When the philosophy of St. Augustine, the man who proudly proclaimed "I am a man of one book (the Bible)", used to hold sway, the religious burned down libraries and books. Augustine also introduced the term "limbo", the destination of un-baptized children. What NON-SENSE! These are things nobody really knows about.

They used to think there were such things as witches ( BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAID SO...see Exodus 22:18 ), and so they burned whole hordes of them. They used to think that boiling or burning people alive was a way of cleansing their souls...so they thought they were doing the heretics a favor. During the Inquisition, they forced Jews to convert to Christianity. They rounded the Jews up in tightly-guarded ghettos and they'd hang pork on their door. If the Jews were caught practicing Judaism (by not eating pork, for example), they were convicted of heresy and consequently executed for it. Or what about the medieval belief in Indulgences? The Popes used to peddle Indulgences to mobilize the infamous Crusades, which saw Jews, Arabs, Muslims and Greek Christians massacred on its trail. They also used to think slavery was okay because the Bible doesn't condemn it but regulated it (see Exodus 21:20-21)...and on and on and on.

St. Thomas Aquinas, the prominent Catholic thinker, was not all that wise in his thinking, either. Aquinas spent a lot of time contemplating on useless stuffs like "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?". He used to struggle with the question of HOW WOULD GOD DEAL WITH THE CANNIBALS? It was believed in those days that, on the Day of Judgment, every particle of the deceased body would be re-assembled. That was the early justification against cremation (though it's curious why Omnipotence could assemble a decayed body but not one that's been subjected to combustion). Aquinas imagines a cannibal who, by practice, eats human flesh. What's to become of the people he ate, on Judgment Day? Aquinas figures that every piece of the cannibal would rightfully be used to re-constitute the people he ate. But then he stumbles into a dead-end. If every part of the cannibal would go to his victims, what's left of the cannibal? How is he going to be properly roasted in hell, if all of his body is used up for his victims?

We continue to see such idiotic nonsense spewed from religious blabber-mouths. A couple of months ago, Pat Robertson blamed the Haiti earthquake on the pact Haitians made with the devil in order to throw off French rule in the 18th century. We read about the Pope condemning condoms as worse than AIDS. Or what about the Vatican banning books and taking childish offense over movies like Harry Potter and The Golden Compass? Come to think of it, it wasn't long ago that the Vatican called rock music as the devil's music, inventing non-sense methods like back-masking to hear the devil's message. We also hear about an Iranian cleric uttering the non-sense that promiscuous women cause earthquakes. Or what about the non-sense from a Muslim cleric in the UK who said that the problem of rape is not the rapist but un-covered meat?

BIBLE JUD? DO YOU WANT ME TO START BIBLE LESSONS YOU MIGHT NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT?

[gdi]

WHY I DO NOT RELY ON RELIGION FOR THE CONTINUING OF OUR DISCOVERY OF NATURE AND THE UNIVERSE...


BIBLE JUD? DO YOU WANT ME TO START BIBLE LESSONS YOU MIGHT NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT?

Im so ready. go go go.

[hitch22]

Im so ready. go go go.

Very well then. SUNDAY SCHOOL IN REVERSE.

I hear it said all the time "The Bible has the answers, the Bible has the answers!" I'll say VERY GOOD, I HAVE THE QUESTIONS. To tell you the truth, there's so many contradictions and errors...I don't know where to begin. I'll just proceed in no particular order, but I'll dish out few examples at a time...so these things can sink in. Just follow me as I go along.

1) John 14:6

Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'

If you have to have Jesus to be saved, and that's what this verse is saying, what do you do about fetuses that die in the womb? What do you do about babies that die at a very young age? What do you do about people who'd lived in countries before the missionaries arrived? What do you do about somebody who lived to be about 90 years old that never attained an IQ of more than 10? There's actually no way these people could accept Jesus. But it says you have to have Jesus to be saved.

2) Why are we being punished for what Adam did?

After all, that's his problem, not ours.

Romans 5:12

12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

How could Adam have sinned, to begin with? He was created by God and God's perfect. Therefore, everything God did must be perfect. If He created Adam, Adam had to be perfect. How could he have sinned? Dr. R.C. Sproul, a chancellor of the Ligonier Academy of Biblical and Theological Studies, admitted that he doesn't know where sin could come from. How could Adam have sinned?

BUT THEN THIS VERSE CONTRADICTS Romans 5:12-22

Deuteronomy 24:16

Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

AND HERE'S ANOTHER CONTRADICTION ABOUT SIN IN THE BIBLE...

Romans 3:23 says that we're all sinners.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

How could all have sinned, when in the Bible, it says in Genesis 6:9

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.

and

Job 1:1

There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil.

Job 1:8

And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?"

If he's perfect, he can't be a sinner. Therefore, the Bible contradicts itself.

[hitch22]

3) Here's a prophecy by Jesus

Matthew 12:40

For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Those who have read Scripture know that Jesus died sometime on a Friday afternoon and rose sometime on a Saturday night or Sunday Morning. If you calculate the number of days and nights, it's quite obvious that Friday afternoon to Saturday night or Sunday morning is not 3 days and 3 nights. That's barely a day and a half if you want to be technical.

4) Jesus Curses the Fig Tree

Mark 11:12-14

12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

Here's the great philosopher and mathematician Bertrand Russell's famous remark about this particular verse:

This is a very curious story, because it was not the right time of year for figs, and you really could not blame the tree. I cannot myself feel that either in the matter of wisdom or in the matter of virtue Christ stands quite as high as some other people known to history. I think I should put Buddha and Socrates above Him in those respects.

5) The Gadarene Swine incident

Mark 5: 1-13 was the case of the man from the town of Gerasenes who was possessed by demons. As the story goes, Jesus drove the demons away from the man and into the pigs and the pigs all rushed down to the lake and drowned.

Once again, I'll quote Russell's funny remark about this incident:

It certainly was not very kind to the pigs to put the devils into them and make them rush down the hill into the sea. You must remember that He was omnipotent, and He could have made the devils simply go away; but He chose to send them into the pigs.

[hitch22]

6) THE INJUSTICE OF HELL

I don't care how bad a person is. I don't care how many bad acts they've committed. I don't care if they're trying to rival Adolf Hitler. There is a limit to the punishment one should get no matter how many bad actions one committed in his lifetime. And yet, what's the punishment? Eternal punishment in hell.

The punishment doesn't fit the crime. If you're gonna have justice, there has to be a limitation. There can only be so many hours, so many days or years in hell to compensate for crimes being committed. And eternity is a loooong time.

7) JESUS' PRE-OCCUPATION WITH THE WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH IN HELL AND HIS INTOLERANCE TO THOSE WHO WOULDN'T LISTEN TO HIM

In Matthew 23:13-29 Christ goes on with his long tirade of "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites" addressed to the very people who did not listen to him or did not like his teachings. And for having a difference of opinion, he suggested THIS PUNISHMENT:

Matthew 23:33

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

The one warning Christ made in which Christians worried about the most, throughout history, is the one on offending the Holy Spirit. It used to scare the great psychologist, Carl Jung, when we was a kid.

Matthew 12:32

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

And then there are the vivid imageries of Hell and Christ's curious fancy on certain types of torture, particularly "throwing people into the fire" and the "wailing and gnashing of teeth".

Quote
Matthew 13:41-42

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:47-50

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Mark 9:43-44

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Again, I'll plug in Bertrand Russell for this commentary...

I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching -- an attitude which is not uncommon with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence. You do not, for instance find that attitude in Socrates. You find him quite bland and urbane toward the people who would not listen to him; and it is, to my mind, far more worthy of a sage to take that line than to take the line of indignation....

....I really do not think that a person with a proper degree of kindliness in his nature would have put fears and terrors of that sort into the world... I must say that I think all this doctrine, that hell-fire is a punishment for sin, is a doctrine of cruelty. It is a doctrine that put cruelty into the world and gave the world generations of cruel torture; and the Christ of the Gospels, if you could take Him as His chroniclers represent Him, would certainly have to be considered partly responsible for that.

[hitch22]

8 ) WHAT'S WRONG WITH CHRIST'S CRUCIFIXION?

a) When Jesus was on the cross, he says "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." Who did he talked to? God? I thought he was God. God talking to God. That makes two Gods. And throw in the Holy Spirit and that makes three Gods. One ex-Christian who converted to Islam used this same reasoning to convince herself that Jesus was not God and therefore she should not worship Him out of fear of committing blasphemy.

To get out of this mess, they used to explain to me, when I was still going to school, that this is a mystery. You can't understand it. There's no mystery to it. It's a contradiction. You can't believe in all of them simultaneously. Therefore Christianity is not a monotheistic religion, it's a tri-theistic religion. A lot of Muslims I know of think this way about Christianity. In this regard, only Judaism and Islam are monotheistic religions.

b) When Jesus was on the cross, he says "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Now, stop and think. How can those be the words of a man who's voluntarily dying for your sins? Those are the words from a man who's thinking of a hundred other places he'd rather be!

c) WHO DIED ON THE CROSS? If a man died, then you have nothing, because the death of a man couldn't save anybody. On the other hand, if God died, then you have an impossibility. The question becomes, what died on the cross?

d) JESUS DYING ON THE CROSS FOR US. It may be a magnanimous act. It may be a generous act. But it has nothing to do with justice. Why does it have nothing to do with justice? Because he did not commit the crime. He didn't do the act.

That makes about as much sense as if I were put in an electric chair (for having killed a hundred people), and just before I sit in the chair, my Dad steps forward and says "I'll sit in the chair for him." Now, do you know of any judge that would accept that arrangement? I don't. Why? Because I did the crime, not my father. You don't punish A for what B did. And yet that's what's occurring.

To quote C.S. Lewis (a Christian apologist):

We can all understand how a man forgives offenses against himself. You tread on my toes and I forgive you, you steal my money and I forgive you. But what should we make of a man, himself unrobbed and untrodden-on, who announced that he forgave you for treading on other men's toes and stealing other men's money?...Yet this is what Jesus did. He told people that their sins were forgiven, and never waited to consult all the other people whom their sins had undoubtedly injured.

The crucifixion or the concept of vicarious redemption is not a moral act. Christ dying on the cross to "take away the sins of the world" is no more different than the practice of primitive pagans of scapegoating---you pile the sins of the tribe on a goat and you drive that goat out into the desert to die of thirst, and you think you've cleansed yourselves of your sins. That concept is morally unacceptable, because it does away with personal accountability which is the basis of morality.

e) TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT. We got out of the problem that Adam created, which is an injustice (because we didn't do the crime Adam did), by Jesus dying on the cross, which is another injustice. So what you have in effect is two wrongs do make a right, according to Christianity.

[hitch22]

9) FOR THOSE WHO LIKE TO EXERCISE...

1 Timothy 4:8

For bodily exercise profiteth little

10) GOD PROTECTS THE RIGHTEOUS AND THWARTS THE WICKED

Proverbs 10:3

The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry, but he thwarts the craving of the wicked.

Proverbs 10:27

The fear of the LORD prolongs life, but the years of the wicked will be short.

I don't know about you. Everywhere I look, the wicked seems to be living longer lives and a lot of people who wouldn't harm anyone are going hungry.

11) DOES GOD CHANGE HIS MIND?

Numbers 23:19

God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

Exodus 32:14

So the LORD changed his mind about the terrible disaster he had threatened to bring on his people.

One verse contradicts the other.

12) DOES GOD ALLOW MAN TO SEE HIS FACE?

Exodus 33:20

"But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”

Genesis 32:30

So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”

AGAIN, another contradiction.

13) SOME CONFLICTING ACCOUNTS AND CONFLICTING NUMBERS

1 Kings 4:26

Solomon also had 40,000 stalls of horses for his chariots, and 12,000 horsemen.

2 Chronicles 9:25

And Solomon had 4,000 stalls for horses and chariots, and 12,000 horsemen, whom he stationed in the chariot cities and with the king in Jerusalem.

...or how about...

2 Samuel 10:18

And the Syrians fled before Israel, and David killed of the Syrians the men of 700 chariots, and 40,000 horsemen, and wounded Shobach the commander of their army, so that he died there.

1 Chronicles 19:18

And the Syrians fled before Israel, and David killed of the Syrians the men of 7,000 chariots and 40,000 foot soldiers, and put to death also Shophach the commander of their army.

14) RE-WRITING THE BIBLE...

One of the things that Christians have done to get out of these problems that are presented here is to simply re-write the text. In other words, if you can't solve it, just re-write the Bible.

A classic example is this...What's the 6th commandment say? THOU SHALT NOT KILL, right? No. The modern version says "Thou shalt not murder."

Why the switch? Well, if you believed in "Thou shalt not kill", how are you going to serve the army? How are you going to be in the police force? How can you carry a gun around for that matter? So they had so many people who were objecting and having problems with that verse.

In the modern versions like the New International Version which is the fundamentalist version, they changed that to "Thou shalt not murder"...but in the King James, it's still "Thou shalt not kill".

[hitch22]

I'll stop there for a while...UNLESS you'd like me to keep going. There's still a lot more. I think there'd be those who'd either like to respond or to add to my list. Please feel free to do so.