All about Roman Catholicism here.

[weedmeister2]

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@mannyamador: if you would only read what i have already posted, i have already answered on the matter of GOOD WORKS and your verses from James... anyway, here it is again:


The Enquiry:

Help me to understand. I believe, trust, depend and rely on the Lord Jesus. I have repented and asked forgiveness of my sins. I have confessed Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I have called upon the name of the Lord, and I believe that I am saved. Having done such, the Bible tells me that I am saved. I know that I am saved by the grace of God and not of my works. Based on what the Bible tells me, I believe that my salvation is secured. However, James 2:17 states that faith without works is dead. To me that means that as a result of my faith in the Lord Jesus, I do good works. I don't think that I do good works to get saved (or stay saved) but because I am saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. What am I missing in your message when you state or imply that sanctification is (not) a process of do's and don't's and should not be something Christians practice? I believe your answer lies somewhere in "....we hear the word of God and believe it and live in the Spirit, walk in the Spirit, are filled with the Spirit and dwell in love. " My question is: Is this not good works? On this earth, are we Christians not to do good deeds-works? Your comments on this would be greatly appreciated.


The Answer:

1) We are created in Christ Jesus for good works. We are to do lots of them, good works are what God has made us for and He has prepared them beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

2) However we are not saved by good works. We are saved apart from good works, by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

3) The good works we are to do are defined as the commandments of Jesus Christ which are pretty well summarized in the Sermon On The Mount and in the various "one another" commands in the New Testament "love one another, forgive one another, be tender-hearted to one another, forbear one another etc.

4) The good works are not "religious" works involving priests, temples, sacrifices, offerings, feast days, oblations, special diets, vows, clean and unclean foods, taboos, don't handle, taste, touch etc. These religious works have all been fulfilled in Christ and there is no need for them to be performed any more, that entire system has passed away (see Galatians and especially Hebrews).

5) There can even be a clash between religious good works and true new creation good works. For instance if money needed for the family is given instead to religious uses and made Corban (means a gift or offering consecrated to God) that is evil. (Mark 7:6-13, 1 Timothy 5:

(Mark 7:6-13 NKJV) He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. {7} And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' {8} "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men; the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." {9} He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. {10} "For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' {11} "But you say, 'If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban"; ' (that is, a gift to God), {12} "then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, {13} "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."

(1 Timothy 5:8 NKJV) But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

6) True "New Creation" good works spring from faith working through love and are done in the power of the Holy Spirit. See the following almost identical verses in Galatians.
(Galatians 5:6 NKJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
(Galatians 6:15 NKJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.


7) True "New Creation" good works are done without thought of the approval of men - including any approval by a religious hierarchy or Christian community. That is not to put down such communal expressions of faith but to limit them within their proper bounds. Approval is given in Christ, by grace, through faith and is called "justification" and is freely given by God.
(John 5:44 NASB) "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?

Being holy is not the same as "being very religious". Being holy just means being set apart to God and living a life that obeys His commandments - the one another commands, Sermon On The Mount etc. True holiness also means being unstained by the works of the flesh such as fornication, witchcraft etc (see Galatians 5:19-21). Being holy is not external piety such as having Christian bumper stickers, lots of bibles and going to church five times a week. You can do all that and be very unholy. Being holy is being loving and righteous and joyful and thankful in the Holy Spirit.

9) Being perfect is not the same as "being very religious". Being perfect is being perfected in love so you can even love your enemies. The prefect Christian is perfectly loving. (Matthew 5:43-48 NASB) "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.' {44} "But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you {45} in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. {46} "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax-gatherers do the same? {47} "And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? {48} "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

10) Unreligious people can still be perfect and holy and fulfill all the good works that God has created beforehand for them to do by having faith in Christ and loving their neighbour with perfect love in the power of the Holy Spirit. Life that is righteousness, joy and peace in the Holy Spirit is simple and uncomplicated - as Jesus said "my yoke is easy and my burden is light". Thus Christians do not have to do a long list of religious duties in order to make God happy. God has been happy with them since the day they were born-again and happily gives them some duties in the Kingdom so they can demonstrate the love they have in their heart and be a blessing to their neighbour.




Now, what good works were you pertaining to, mr. mannyamador?

[mannyamador]

Since the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, therefore he speaks for the whole church, and the church's actions or TRADITIONS emanate from the Pontiff's Seat...

Wrong. The Pope does NOT speak for the whole Church, nor does he speak for its doctrines unless he EXPLICITLY declares he is doing so, and ONLY on the matter of faith and morals (known as an EX CATHEDRA statement). In all other instances, he is fallible. I repeat: ALL other instances. He speaks as himself, or as a fallible Pope, a sinner, in all these other instances. But as usual, you misrepresent the teachings of the Church.

There's a word to describe your attitude of attacking a doctrine without even understanding it. It is called PREJUDICE.

The Bible teaches that all have sinned except Jesus (Romans 3:10-12, Hebrews 4:15), but tradition says that Mary was sinless.

Wrong. The verse in the Bible says ALL have sinned. No mention of Jesus. If we take it literally, then even Jesus was a sinner. But He obviously isn't one. So then the verse that says "all have sinned" cannot be taken literally.

The Bible teaches that Christ offered His sacrifice once for all (Hebrews 7:27, 9:28, 10:10), but tradition says that the priest sacrifices Christ on the altar at mass.

Wrong. Tradition teaches that the mass is a joining of the eternal sacrifice of Christ that is forever give to the Father. God is timeless. Christ's sacrifice is timeless. Again, you misrepresent the teaching. PREJUDICE on your part.

The Bible says that we are not to bow down to statues (Exodus 20:4, 5), but tradition says that we should bow down to statues.

Wrong. Deuteronomy 5:9 says do not bow down to IDOLS. Not all statues are idols. And not all bowing is worship. Again, misrepresentation of teachings = PREJUDICE.

Pretty much the rest of the garbage you've posted is all the same: you misrepresent the teaching and then attack. That is a straw man argument. It is also dishonest and prejudiced. MrBiddle/Cardinalwacko are experts at this.

[Desert Father]

Amen mannyamador.

[mannyamador]

@mannyamador: if you would only read what i have already posted, i have already answered on the matter of GOOD WORKS and your verses from James... anyway, here it is again:

<gratuitous person interpretation excised>

Like I've pointed out before, your twisting God's Word to make it fit your personal interpretation. The words of James 2:14-26 are clear. You are NOT saved by faith alone.

Lest anyone doubt, here is James 2:24:

"See how a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone."

No, your explanation plainly contradicts the Bible. No amount of "creative writing" on your part changes what is plainly written in the Bible. James was specifically addressing your silly kind of thinking, and he made sure he made the doctrine as clear as possible. Faith alone does not save. Without works, it is DEAD. Period.

[mannyamador]

The mind is supposed to process knowledge and I'd like to think that I'm doing a better job of it than others.

We process knowledge too, Carlo. And I think some are doing just as well as, and sometimes better than, you are.

[mannyamador]

Point: The Bible does not have to assert that it is the only source of Authority if no other source of equal authority can be produced. If it alone stands at the end of the day as the only Authoritative Word from God then it is Sola Scriptura by default!

This reasoning is faulty.

It ASSUMES that the Bible is authoritative, and therefore claims that by default if it is all that is "left standing", then it must be the sole authority. But it does not consider WHY it should even be considered authoritative in the first place.

The question is important because if one looks at the early Church we see that there was NO Bible. The authority was the Church and its Apostolic Tradition. And it was this Church that used its Tradition to put together (and even write parts of) the Bible!

There is no list in scripture that specifices what books should be in the Bible. The list (or "canon) of books in the Bible was determined by the Church's Tradition. God never gave a list of books to be put in a "Bible". So if, as the Bible fanatics claim, that the Church's Tradition has no authority, then there is no way of knowing what books should be in the Bible! How then can the Bible be authoritative, much less be the only one "left standing"?

The bottomline: the Bible has no authority apart from the Church that determined what should be in the Bible in the first place!

[weedmeister2]

Wrong. The Pope does NOT speak for the whole Church, nor does he speak for its doctrines unless he EXPLICITLY declares he is doing so, and ONLY on the matter of faith and morals (known as an EX CATHEDRA statement). In all other instances, he is fallible. I repeat: ALL other instances. He speaks as himself, or as a fallible Pope, a sinner, in all these other instances. But as usual, you misrepresent the teachings of the Church.

There's a word to describe your attitude of attacking a doctrine without even understanding it. It is called PREJUDICE.

Is this why Pope Pius IX said at the time of the First Vatican Council in 1870, “I am tradition.â€�? Â*:mrgreen:

So, who in fact can tell you what the scriptures mean? If you listen carefully to your statements, you will notice that the real authority for Rome is neither Scripture nor tradition, but the church. What is the Scripture, and what does it teach? Only the church can tell you. What is tradition, and what does it teach? Only the church can tell you. As the Roman theologian John Eck said, “The Scriptures are not authentic, except by the authority of the church.�

Now, going back to what Pope Pius IX said above, the overwhelming arrogance of such a statement is staggering. But it confirms our claim that, for Rome, the only real authority is the church: sola ecclesia.



Wrong. The verse in the Bible says ALL have sinned. No mention of Jesus. If we take it literally, then even Jesus was a sinner. But He obviously isn't one. So then the verse that says "all have sinned" cannot be taken literally.

Read the verses before you nullify them bro...
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

Who could that be...? uh... hmmm.... Mary? Â*



Wrong. Tradition teaches that the mass is a joining of the eternal sacrifice of Christ that is forever give to the Father. God is timeless. Christ's sacrifice is timeless. Again, you misrepresent the teaching. PREJUDICE on your part.

What part of ONCE FOR ALL don't you understand bai? You MISINTERPRET the teachings so you can kill Jesus every day in every church.



Not all statues are idols. And not all bowing is worship.

I guess when you kiss someone's feet and rub your hanky on them just to get a little of their holiness, that doesn't count as worship eh?

Not all statues are bowed down to. The ones in the church are. And bowing is, at the least, a sign of respect. Respect for a dead piece of wood. A piece of wood respected is an IDOL. Look it up mannyamador.



My garbage is stronger than yours. Amen, mosimos?

[mannyamador]

Is this why Pope Pius IX said at the time of the First Vatican Council in 1870, “I am tradition.�?

This is another logical fallacy: quoting out of context. Good grief! You ought to know better!

The real authority is from Christ, given to the Church. You ALMOST got that right.

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

That's MY point exactly! Do you even know how to argue?!!! That verse you just quoted PROVES that "all have sinned" is NOT to be taken literally.

You just shot yourself in the foot!

I guess when you kiss someone's feet and rub your hanky on them just to get a little of their holiness, that doesn't count as worship eh?

Please show me one official dogma of the Catholic Church that states Catholics must rub hankies on statues and that the "holiness" of the statue rubs off on them. Can't find any, eh? Try again.

• The Religious Uses of Images
  
  During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery
  serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent,
  and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).
  
  One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not
  merely as religious decorations.
  
  Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to
  remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures
  of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of
  the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children.
  Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional
  nativity scenes at Christmas.
  
  If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry"
  of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods,
  but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things
  would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.
  
  It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the
  bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

That pretty much sums up why your caricature of Catholic teaching is wrong. But sadly, I expect you to rely on your own judgement against the practices of some people as your infallible source of Catholic doctrine. That, of course, isn't the least bit honest on your part.

[Spec-V]

I'm guessing mosimos is an alter ego of s.n.m.p.?

QFT... and in fact more alias he has... and all muted or banned... love to hate but he do more lively and love to argue with his weird/unpractical reasonings... from his Anti GMA/government, pro-communist stand, ultra religion comments... just wait his making another alias... and I welcome his comeback again.

QFT=Quoted For Truth

@ Pandi - His back.Â* You'll be able to spot him.

[Gwynhuever]

^^welcome back brod mosimosÂ* :mrgreen:

OT : hahaha dalia nimo katag-an oi...unhan sad ko nimo da...

Also why can't Catholics just admit the worship of idols aron mahuman na ni nga lalis ...at least we get one point out of the argument. I have read the answers of both mannyamador and mosimos a.k.a desert father....yeah yeah yeah ....images lang to show love and appreciation but not worshipped....nya nganong naa man mga novena especially dedicated to these saints/idols??