Legalize Abortion?

[giddyboy]

---

Wrong again. The RH bill does NOT allow such freedom. It FORCES schools to give the wrong kind of "*** education", as mandated by an incompetent source. And this kind of values-free, pro-contraceptive training is being given to children as young as 10 years old! I have seen some of the materials. You haven't.

if you have read some of the s3x ed materials from the supposedly RH Bill, why not post it here? for all i know, basin gamugna mugna rka dha ug imohang conclusion to your favor...

Take note that similar "comprehensive *** education" programs -- involving teaching kids how to use contraceptives and to express themselves sexually -- in other countries has utterly FAILED. In fact, as in Britain, they even backfired, causing even more "unwanted" pregnancies.

they failed because to blame could be their socialization agents like their parents. Lahi ang culture sa UK ug US sa atoa. we are more family-oriented. we have extended families. we are different.

A global review of studies on sexual behavior shows that s3x ed improves awareness of risk, knowledge of risk reduction strategies, increase self-effectiveness & intention to practice safer s3x, & delays rather than hastens the onset of sexual activity. Thus, proper s3x education does not promote promiscuity.

and by golly, can't you even be decent enuff to show statistics not from the US, not from the UK, but from the Philippines? coz u r like saying that: "US and UK failed in their s3x ed program. So if the Phils. will have one too, it will also fail." toinks! (so kung ing ana ato huna2x, maypa wala nlng diay s3x ed huh?)

here is a position including the statistics:

The Situation of Our Youth
As parents & guardians of our 15.1 M youth aged 15-24, our greatest challenge is to provide them a safe & nurturing environ where they can study & learn, forge friendships, develop their innate talents, & be guided into responsible citizenship. It might therefore cause us some shock & sadness to know that our youth are increasingly becoming involved in sexual risk-taking behavior. This includes premarital *** & unprotected ***, which may result in unintended pregnancy, or in contracting HIV-AIDS & other STDs.

Comparing data involving youth aged 15-24 reveals that the prevalence of premarital sexual activity increased by 5.6 % points, from 17.8 % in 1994 to 23.4 % in 2002. Even more dramatic was the change over time among youth who said that they have friends who have engaged in premarital ***. In 1994, only 42.5 % of the youth claimed that they have sexually-experienced unmarried friends. 8 yrs later in 2002, more than 1/2 (53.8%) reported having such friends.

The 2002 YAFS survey also shows that 11.8 % of the youth had their first sexual encounter w/in the ages of 15 to 19, compared to only 8.1 % in 1994. Moreover, the ave. age for the first sexual encounter of the youth declined from 18 years in 1994, to 17.5 years in 2002. Thus, it appears that more of our youth are getting initiated into s3x at increasingly younger ages. What is particularly worrisome is how the majority of our youth who have had premarital s3x did not intend to do so during their first sexual encounter. Of the youth who have had premarital s3x, only 43 % wanted their first sexual experience to happen. The rest of the 57 % either said that they did not plan for their sexual encounter to occur but went along with it anyway (55%), or revealed that their first sexual experience happened against their will, which is tantamount to rape (2%). Because the first premarital s3x act is usually unplanned, it is typically unprotected. Nearly 4 in 5 (79%) youth who have had premarital s3x did not use a contraceptive during their first sexual experience, compared to only one in five (21%) who did. Comparatively, protection was higher among the males (27.5%) than the females (14.8%), rendering the latter extremely vulnerable to
unplanned pregnancy.

Even more alarming is how the youth continue to fail to use any form of contraception in their subsequent sexual encounters. Of the sexually-active unmarried youth, 3 in 4 (75.1%) did not have any protection during their most recent premarital s3x act, as against only 1 in 4 (24.9%) who did.

The reasons mentioned by the youth in 2002 for not using contraceptives, in declining order of importance, are:
(1) lack of knowledge on contraception;
(2) the belief that contraception is either wrong (against one’s religion) or dangerous to one’s health;
(3) objection of the partner;
(4) and the view that s3x is not fun with contraception.

And yet when female respondents who had already engaged in s3x were asked in the 1994 YAFS survey if they were willing and prepared to become parents, an overwhelming 94 % of them said that they were not.

From the foregoing, it is apparent that much of our youth’s risky sexual behavior stems from their lack of knowledge on s3x. Although 70 % of our youth are aware that a woman could get pregnant only after she begins menstruation, the vast majority (80%) of young females do not know the fertile period of their menstrual cycle. Close to half of our youth are unaware that it is possible for a woman to get pregnant after only one sexual encounter. In addition, our youth have many misconceptions about HIV-AIDS & STDs, such as: AIDS is curable (72.7%); AIDS is a punishment from God meted on people who had *** outside of marriage (35.1%); and AIDS is contracted only by those who have multiple s3x partners (27.8%)

Our youth’s increased sexual activity, notwithstanding their insufficient understanding of reproductive health & their sexual rights and responsibilities, can lead to adverse outcomes, such as unwanted pregnancy & contracting STDs. The life script of a female who had early s3x is invariably written as a plot of early marriage, aborted schooling, curtailed work opportunities, frequent pregnancies, & sometimes separation, abortions, & even early death. The 2003 Nat'l Demographic & Health Survey reveals that 26 % of young women aged 15-24 years have begun childbearing, of whom 8 % are teenagers aged 15-19 yrs.

Many pregnancies among females in the 15-24 age bracket are unintended, resulting in abortions for some. Based on a 2004 nationwide survey of married & unmarried women aged 15-49, 46 % of abortion attempts occur among young women, of w/c 30 % are attempted by women aged 20-24, & 16 % by teenagers aged 15-19.

Moreover, because early pregnancies are high-risk cases, many young women & adolescents die in pregnancy, at birth, or shortly after birth. Young women including teenage mothers accounted for 25.4 % of the total 1,833 maternal deaths reported in 2004, of which 18.4 % were deaths of young mothers aged 20-24; 6.6 %, adolescent mothers 15-19 yrs old; & 0.4 %, teenage mothers under 15. In addition, almost a 3rd, or 30.4 %, of the total 10,351 fetal deaths recorded in 2005 were experienced by young women 24 yrs old & below, of whom 22.8 %t were aged 20-24, 7.6 % were 15-19 yrs old, & 0.01 % were under 15.

From whom should our young people learn about reproductive health, sexuality, & responsible sexual behavior? Socialization agents such as the family, peer group, church, religion & the media are crucial to the youth’s development, as they impart the values & norms of behavior acceptable to one’s society. However, officials of the Catholic Church have strongly opposed the inclusion of s3x education in the curriculum of public schools, arguing that doing so would arouse young people’s curiosity about s3x, encourage them to try premarital s3x, & promote their promiscuity." ~ From a Position paper on the RH Bill by individual faculty of the Ateneo de Manila University

Whether you want to call it s3x ed or abstinence ed, that is still generally called s3x ed. the only difference is the focus. whereas the term "s3x ed" seemed general, the term "abstinence ed" has a more accurate agenda.

as for me, i go for abstinence in teens before their marriage. but it doesn't mean dili nlng pud iapil ang ubang needed info like those on contraceptives & other focuses. they all should go hand in hand. Just like in Uganda, they were successful in their RH drives by combining contraceptive use & abstinence (including fidelity).

A major aspect of s3x ed should be its focus on social relationships, emotions, choice-making, & responsibilities to self and others. s3x ed should not be viewed as a collection of facts, but as a problem-solving approach to real life situations.

The purposes of s3x ed, the qualities of an effective teacher of s3x ed, resources to help teachers learn about s3x ed instruction, use of resource persons, preparation of students for s3x ed, & involvement of students in the instructional process, should all be discussed.

Suggestions should also be offered for preventing controversy about the s3x ed program, primarily by communicating with parents.

I know what we are talking about here should be about abortion. but it can't be helped talking about some side dishes like s3x ed. The intent of having s3x ed is to avoid premarital s3x & unwanted pregnancies in teens, therefore abortion in teens too.

So in this regard, one cannot always say that proper s3x education leads to abortion. that is just too far-fetched pre...

[giddyboy]

No to abortion

me too!

No to contraceptive YES to abstinence

is that for a teen/teenager or for a married couple?

of course, as a parent, you can always say to your teen "No premarital s3x ha, no contraceptives ha, but only abstain from s3x until u get married ha."

but you can't say "no contraceptives ha, abstinence only ha." to a married couple, do you? well, perhaps a priest can...

[mannyamador]

And I'm sorry to point out that your second paragraph do not make sense. At first your questioning "why people should teach blah blah blahs" and the on the last part you said "guide them, point them in the proper direction and teach them". So please be clear on your thoughts.

Good point. A contradiction, really.

The bill is not pro-abortion. Accdg to the author and co-authors, the bill explicitly treats abortion as a crime.

You are LIAR. As has been pointed out over and over, the bill only admits SURGICAL abortion as a crime (as per existing law), but it promotes CHEMICAL abortion through the funding and forcible distribution of abortifacioent contraceptives.

Furthermore. by promoting contraceptive usage, the bill will lead to INCREASED DEMAND FOR ABORTION.

The evidence for this (which you ignored) is at:
https://www.istorya.net/forums/politi...ml#post5106667

but you can't say "no contraceptives ha, abstinence only ha." to a married couple, do you?

Of course you can. That's what is involved in Natural Family Planning (NFP). Permanent abstinence (perpetual celibacy) is different from periodic abstinence (which is what you do in NFP). You are confusing the two.

they failed because to blame could be their socialization agents like their parents.

Lame excuse and baseless speculation. Let's stick to the facts and the evidence. Read the articles I posted instead of ignoring them (as you usually do with evidence that proves you wrong). Contraceptive *** education encourages promiscuity. It just doesn't work That is also backed up by other studies on results of contraceptive usage.

• “Comprehensive” S** Education is Ineffective: Abstinence Works, Major National Study Shows
  http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/jun/07061304.html
  
  
  Outlining these limitations and the report’s inaccuracies, Dr. Weed highlighted the problems that sexually active teens encounter and the failure of “comprehensive” *** education to remedy such issues. These include teen pregnancy, STD’s and poor emotional health. Sexually active young people are also more often physically assaulted or raped.
  
  “Comprehensive” s** education also fails to explain the limitation of condoms, said the recent study, pointing out that “many consequences of teen sexual activity are not prevented by condom use.” Condoms are never a total guarantee against STD’s, and so there is no kind of truly “safe” s** outside of marriage. Secondly, despite 20 years of s** education, young people even fail to use condoms consistently. Most importantly, however, condoms do nothing to prevent the heartbreak, depression and low self-esteem caused by sexual activity.
• £6 Million Government Reduction Program Resulted in More than Twice as Many Teen Pregnancies
  More than half of UK teen pregnancies end in abortion
  http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/jul/09070904.html
  
  
  Phyllis Bowman of Right to Life slammed the government's failed attempts at curbing the problem of teenage pregnancy. "The young have been deliberately sexualised in a culture which sneers at the idea of telling teenagers they should not have s**," she said.
  
  She pointed to "contraception campaigners" who look to unwed teenagers for the bulk of their revenue. "We have the highest level of sexually transmitted disease in Europe and the highest level of sexual activity among teenagers in Europe. UNICEF says we have the unhappiest teenagers in Europe.

Just like in Uganda, they were successful in their RH drives by combining contraceptive use & abstinence (including fidelity).

Wrong again. Contraceptive usage was a total failure in Uganda. In fact, it also backfired. Contraceptives caused risdk compensation behavior and to an INCREASE in HIV infections in some areas. What actually worked was abstinence and fidelity. Contraceptives were a hardly-used last resort -- and were INEFFECTIVE. In contrast, countries that emphasized contraceptives over abstinence and fidelity saw HIV infections soar!

A major aspect of s3x ed should be its focus on social relationships, emotions, choice-making, & responsibilities to self and others. s3x ed should not be viewed as a collection of facts, but as a problem-solving approach to real life situations.

Now you're starting to make sense. This is the kind of values educatrion promoted by groups like Pro-Life Philippines PLP). PLP has a Teen Sexuality Training Workshop. It also recently sponsored a seminar on dealing with homosexuality and the Manila "UNASHAMED" Purity Conference held last February. This same Purity Conference will be here in Cdebu on September 19, 2009.

Some other PLP educational efforts and resources include:

• Teen Touch (a book)
  http://prolife.org.ph/home/index.php...ife/teen-touch
  
  
• Dating and s**
  http://prolife.org.ph/home/index.php...dating-and-***
  
  
• Safeguarding your Children against Today's Popular Culture
  http://prolife.org.ph/home/index.php/promoting-life/responsible-parenting/safeguarding-your-children-against-today-s-popular-culture
  
  
• How can you Help Yourself to Mature
  http://prolife.org.ph/home/index.php...self-to-mature

And much more. Check out the resources at the Pro-Life Philippines website: http://www.prolife.org.ph

Sadly, this effective values education is NOT what is promoted by the RH bill and its authors, like the PLCPD. They and other pro-RH fanatics are still stuck in the antedeluvian "overpopulation" myth and promoting chemical abortion though abortifacient contraceptives. This last one is not surprising since their financial backers in the EU and elsewhere believe abortion is a "right".



NO TO THE ABORTIFACIENT-PROMOTING RH BILL!
Please sign the petition AGAINST the deadly Reproductive Health Bill (HB5043)

[cypher86]

Morality/Immorality is not something hardwired into a human's basic instinct. It is something we learn from our environment. An environment that promotes wholesome life will bring up wholesome people. An environment that promotes promiscuousness will bring up perverted people. That RH bill will certainly promote the later. Thats how simple it is.

Zomg! i lol'ed really hard at this i had tears in my eyes. You got it the other way around.

To address the first part "morality is not something hardwired.." if you are referring to ***, oh i bet you always skipped biology class didn't you?
*** is hardwired into our system. In Maslow's heirarchy of needs it is one of the most basic need along with food, water and air. Not necessarily for the survival of the organism but for the survival of the species.

The concept that *** outside of marriage is wrong/evil/IMMORAL stems from our upbringing. that my friend is the one that is learned.

Our "Id", the pleasure principle, the Hardwired Nature to engage in Philanderous acts is the one we have when we were born.

The SuperEGO, Soceity's resitrictions, is the one that controls our urges. the one we LEARNED through interaction with our parents and fellowman.

The Ego, the You, who does the balancing act between the two.

[cypher86]

And I'm sorry to point out that your second paragraph do not make sense. At first your questioning "why people should teach blah blah blahs" and the on the last part you said "guide them, point them in the proper direction and teach them". So please be clear on your thoughts.

Its pretty hard to convey the Idea through a restrictive medium such as this forum. Some of the Concepts you wish to convey may get misinterpreted since we give meaning to sentences by our own pre-formed notions and biases.

What i meant by that is:

1. Nobody should have the right to tell people what to teach their children.(Ie. IMHO the Government doesn't have the right to tell people what to teach their children especially when it comes to matters involving ***)

2. Having said number 1.(see paragraph above for reference) Since I believe that children as they grow towards puberty they become more and more curious about the changes in their bodies and their sexuality, I suggest that we offer them guidance.

Give them facts! DO NOT infect them with your tainted ideas of "that's bad!" or "your immoral!" or "You'll burn in hell for that!"

in short, treat them like intelligent adults, "share" your ideas without traces of duress or coercion. But allow them to make their own decision.
they deserve more credit than you give them


i hope i've made my views clearer.

Out of topic: yeey 30 posts! now i can start threads in the Trade/Sell/Buy section horrrayy!

[bcasabee]

Cypher, I was talking about morality not ***. If you are questioning why people should teach *** education, ask giddyboy, he is the expert.

Zomg! i lol'ed really hard at this i had tears in my eyes. You got it the other way around.

To address the first part "morality is not something hardwired.." if you are referring to ***, oh i bet you always skipped biology class didn't you?
*** is hardwired into our system. In Maslow's heirarchy of needs it is one of the most basic need along with food, water and air. Not necessarily for the survival of the organism but for the survival of the species.

The concept that *** outside of marriage is wrong/evil/IMMORAL stems from our upbringing. that my friend is the one that is learned.

Our "Id", the pleasure principle, the Hardwired Nature to engage in Philanderous acts is the one we have when we were born.

The SuperEGO, Soceity's resitrictions, is the one that controls our urges. the one we LEARNED through interaction with our parents and fellowman.

The Ego, the You, who does the balancing act between the two.

[bcasabee]

Its pretty hard to convey the Idea through a restrictive medium such as this forum. Some of the Concepts you wish to convey may get misinterpreted since we give meaning to sentences by our own pre-formed notions and biases.

What i meant by that is:

1. Nobody should have the right to tell people what to teach their children.(Ie. IMHO the Government doesn't have the right to tell people what to teach their children especially when it comes to matters involving ***)

Alright, I agree ... that is why manny is lambasting the RH bill with power punches because the bill will make someone a criminal if he/she doesn't follow its provisions. You should support manny if thats the case.

2. Having said number 1.(see paragraph above for reference) Since I believe that children as they grow towards puberty they become more and more curious about the changes in their bodies and their sexuality, I suggest that we offer them guidance.

Give them facts! DO NOT infect them with your tainted ideas of "that's bad!" or "your immoral!" or "You'll burn in hell for that!"

in short, treat them like intelligent adults, "share" your ideas without traces of duress or coercion. But allow them to make their own decision.
they deserve more credit than you give them


i hope i've made my views clearer.

Out of topic: yeey 30 posts! now i can start threads in the Trade/Sell/Buy section horrrayy!

Ok thanks...no problem.

[bcasabee]

Ok...Here are my two points about the RH bill.

Point 1. What will it solve? - nothing
Point 2. At what prize? - waste of nations money and makes perverted people (that will lead to more problems).

So now, with those two points. Can you share also your thoughts on those?

murag mabaw ra kaayo na nga pamalandong pre. if someone is against abortion, it doesn't automatically mean all the more that he/she should say NO to the RH Bill. don't make a fallacy of assumption here.

The bill is not pro-abortion. Accdg to the author and co-authors, the bill explicitly treats abortion as a crime.

The bill also does not have bias in any family planning methods. It is for both MFP (artificial contraception) and NFP (natural contraception). but it is admitted as a fact that some sectors consider using artificial contraceptives as committing abortion, that's why they call the RH Bill as pro-abortion. but another fact is, their belief is not absolute. some sectors are not convinced that contraceptives cause abortion. even Sen. Manny Villar and Chiz Escudero support the RH Bill. ayaw ko ingna they are pro-abortion?

i am not stopping you to make a preferred suggestion here abi ky maoy imong personal case.

but IMHO, ang mas sakto unta nga suggestion: if someone is against abortion, the more he/she STUDY THE BILL FIRST. dissect each detail, then agree or disagree on certain points. to the points that you don't agree, debate healthily on the issue, offer amendments or changes. and perhaps at this point you can also say YES or NO to the RH Bill. just because there are certain provisos in the bill that you don't like, you want to discredit the entire bill na. lahi2x baya ug utok ang tawo pre.

coz in the end, it is the Filipino constituents via the legislative branch that drives to pass this bill into law or not, and not istorya.net. well, maybe a littel influence lang cguro...

I hope that makes sense.

[mannyamador]

The concept that *** outside of marriage is wrong/evil/IMMORAL stems from our upbringing. that my friend is the one that is learned.

That's exactly what @bcasabee is saying. he was referring to morality. Try readign what is being posted before reacting.

Ok...Here are my two points about the RH bill.
Point 1. What will it solve? - nothing
Point 2. At what prize? - waste of nations money and makes perverted people (that will lead to more problems).

Touche! Not only will the RH bill solve nothing, it will create even more problems!

• The RH bill takes billions away that could have been used to provide real essential medicines that cure killee diseases, and isntead us them for contraceptives which do NOT cure any disease and are purely elective (medically unnecessary) treatments.
  
  
• The bill promotes widespread contraceptive usage, which studies have shown lead to even more promiscuity and risk compensatory behavior. This, of course, leads to more unwanted pregnancies and greater demand for abortion. The net effect of the RH bill will be to increase demand for abortions.

NO TO THE ABORTIFACIENT-PROMOTING RH BILL!
Please sign the petition AGAINST the deadly Reproductive Health Bill (HB5043)

[mannyamador]

This article shows how the pro-RH fanatics are deceiving people by playing with words.

Growing debate over abortifacients:
abortifacients, drugs or agents that cause an abortion, are commonly sold to women who think they are getting substances that prevent conception altogether.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Growin.....-a0174059744

But the main abortion-inducing drug just may be birth control pills (BCPs). Experts in the fields of pharmacy, biology, gynecology, and obstetrics have come to the conclusion that today's hormonal contraceptives not only possess their contraceptive properties but have potential abortifacient mechanisms that can kick in when the contraceptive mechanism fails. Though these claims are backed up with scientific evidence, contraceptive users may be innocently ignorant about the true properties of these substances.

...

However, there is another reason why there's no clear understanding about what could be the lethal consequences of BCPs -- outright deception. In the mid-60s, the American College of Obstetricians. with the agreement of the CDC and Department of Health. Education and Welfare, along with Big Pharma, adopted a new definition of pregnancy. Previously it had been defined as beginning from the moment of fertilization -- conception. They redefined it. claiming pregnancy did not start until the baby is implanted in the lining of the womb. usually occurring five to seven days after conception. With this "'new" definition, the abortifacient purveyors can. through semantic manipulation, openly promote abortifacients as contraceptives, hoodwinking overworked physicians and busy women alike.