CALL CENTERS: Labor Unions are watching...

[Minuano27]

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i've been lurking on this thread and i figured i'd give my 2 cents worth on the "big picture", so to speak.

a union will be effective only if it has a certain degree of parity with the company. this parity will be present only if the company is in a position to lose a lot if it does not deal with the union. for example, unions in banks and other large companies succeed because these companies already have considerable investments in assets and infrastructure (not to mention large loans which they have to repay), and they cannot afford to lose these investments, the income or their otherwise profitable business if the employees go on strike.

think san miguel beer as an example - if the employees go on strike, how long can the company endure? it might have inventory, but this won't last if the strike goes on and on. in the meantime, there are bills and loans to pay, equipment to maintain, raw materials deliveries have to be diverted to other warehouses (hence more bills to pay) because these can't get inside the factory, etc., etc., etc. - a long list of problems that crop up when business shuts down. the longer the strike goes on, damage is wrought on both sides (bec. the employees don't get paid either), so it's a question of who will blink first. either way, the union is negotiating from a position parity - more or less equal strength/position versus management, bec. it is in a position where it is forcing management to deal with it fair and square.

someone has posted that call centers are being opened in the philippines bec. the owners don't want to comply with US labor laws. assuming this to be true, then i wouldn't be surpised that a call center will close once its employees vote to form a union. compared to the large, established companies (banks, etc.), call centers don't have considerable investment in fixed assets, because actually, its major assets are the employees themselves who want to form a union. under this scenario, the owners probably won't hesitate to lose their investment and close shop. after all, they already did this when they stopped operating in the US and moved here, where their investment in fixed assets is considerably lesser.

having said all that, i think lytslpr's purpose in making this thread concerns the way the policies are being implemented. from what i gather, it's either not implemented, inconsistently implemented, or abusively implemented. if so, then the employees affected should file cases in the DOLE.

this, however, is a somewhat gray area in labor law. the DOLE is mostly concerned with the conditions of work, i.e., correct wages, hours of work, etc. issues on company policies, however, fall under what's known as "management prerogative" - the right to prescribe rules and regulations on the operation of the business. as long as these rules, regulations and policies are fair and reasonable, then the management prerogative is recognized and respected, even by the supreme court. for example, you are being transferred to another department where your skills are needed, and instead of an 8-5 workshift, you are going to be on the 2-10 shift, but there is no diminution in salary and benefits. if you refuse bec. you don't want to change shifts, you will be charged with insubordination and dismissed. in this situation, as long as the company can show that your transfer is necessary, then managment's prerogative in transferring you will be respected. another example is the banning of cellphones in the workplace - as long as there is a reasonable justification for this, then this policy will be upheld. this princple of management prerogative was established because the government cannot be expected to poke its nose into each and every decision that a company makes. if this were so, then every management decision will be contested, and you can imagine how many thousands of cases that will be filed on even the most minor management decision.

i think the bottom line is this - there may be strength in numbers if employees form a union, but it all boils down to a question of whether or not the owner of the business is willing to lose his investment (if he hasn't recovered it yet) if a union is formed. if the owner isn't willing, then it's a good bet that a union can succeed, but if he's willing to give it up, then the employees would lose their considerable income (compared to that of a minimum wage earner).

[kiker]

sakto sad d gyd ka afford ang mga call center kong mag strike and mga employee... 1week nga strike lang cguro mag close gyd.. they will lose millions(php) bsan 1 week lang....

[Bolshoi]

i hope dili na masudlan og labor union on any call centers nationwide...
ang trend rba karon na mu boom jud ni na business sa atong nasud so if ma bulabog ni sila
perhaps will invest to other country sa Asia..... I don't think this group will bring benefits to
the workers ( personnel )....

[LytSlpr]

@Minuano27: Good point! but if the going gets tough, then that is the risk the employees are willing to take. That is ALWAYS the risk of having a union. If a union is present, I don't think the company will automatically close as you've said they also have investments here, unless of course of a lock-out. If the existence of a union will merely make the management listen or will go as far as listening to the employees and acting upon their concerns then I think that is good enough. I think brian_d's LCM concept would be good for the moment but i doubt it if the call centers will even allow that. Â*the only problem here is that employee concerns, issues, complaints, suggestions, etc. are not acted upon and they are using their level of pay and top benefits as leverage.

[brian_d]

i've been lurking on this thread and i figured i'd give my 2 cents worth on the "big picture", so to speak.

a union will be effective only if it has a certain degree of parity with the company. this parity will be present only if the company is in a position to lose a lot if it does not deal with the union. for example, unions in banks and other large companies succeed because these companies already have considerable investments in assets and infrastructure (not to mention large loans which they have to repay), and they cannot afford to lose these investments, the income or their otherwise profitable business if the employees go on strike.

think san miguel beer as an example - if the employees go on strike, how long can the company endure? it might have inventory, but this won't last if the strike goes on and on. in the meantime, there are bills and loans to pay, equipment to maintain, raw materials deliveries have to be diverted to other warehouses (hence more bills to pay) because these can't get inside the factory, etc., etc., etc. - a long list of problems that crop up when business shuts down. the longer the strike goes on, damage is wrought on both sides (bec. the employees don't get paid either), so it's a question of who will blink first. either way, the union is negotiating from a position parity - more or less equal strength/position versus management, bec. it is in a position where it is forcing management to deal with it fair and square.

someone has posted that call centers are being opened in the philippines bec. the owners don't want to comply with US labor laws. assuming this to be true, then i wouldn't be surpised that a call center will close once its employees vote to form a union. compared to the large, established companies (banks, etc.), call centers don't have considerable investment in fixed assets, because actually, its major assets are the employees themselves who want to form a union. under this scenario, the owners probably won't hesitate to lose their investment and close shop. after all, they already did this when they stopped operating in the US and moved here, where their investment in fixed assets is considerably lesser.

having said all that, i think lytslpr's purpose in making this thread concerns the way the policies are being implemented. from what i gather, it's either not implemented, inconsistently implemented, or abusively implemented. if so, then the employees affected should file cases in the DOLE.

this, however, is a somewhat gray area in labor law. the DOLE is mostly concerned with the conditions of work, i.e., correct wages, hours of work, etc. issues on company policies, however, fall under what's known as "management prerogative" - the right to prescribe rules and regulations on the operation of the business. as long as these rules, regulations and policies are fair and reasonable, then the management prerogative is recognized and respected, even by the supreme court. for example, you are being transferred to another department where your skills are needed, and instead of an 8-5 workshift, you are going to be on the 2-10 shift, but there is no diminution in salary and benefits. if you refuse bec. you don't want to change shifts, you will be charged with insubordination and dismissed. in this situation, as long as the company can show that your transfer is necessary, then managment's prerogative in transferring you will be respected. another example is the banning of cellphones in the workplace - as long as there is a reasonable justification for this, then this policy will be upheld. this princple of management prerogative was established because the government cannot be expected to poke its nose into each and every decision that a company makes. if this were so, then every management decision will be contested, and you can imagine how many thousands of cases that will be filed on even the most minor management decision.

i think the bottom line is this - there may be strength in numbers if employees form a union, but it all boils down to a question of whether or not the owner of the business is willing to lose his investment (if he hasn't recovered it yet) if a union is formed. if the owner isn't willing, then it's a good bet that a union can succeed, but if he's willing to give it up, then the employees would lose their considerable income (compared to that of a minimum wage earner).

Well said. This call centers will not hesitate to close shop if ever a UNION is formed. They can just move thier call centers elsewhere. It is a risk. A VERY BIG RISK, one that most call center employees will NOT be willing to take. As said before, as long as minimum labor requirements are met it's management's prerogative to set its own procedures. If things go wrong bitaw they can always go to DOLE. And believe me, we have a very PRO-LABOR govt. Mao gani most companies will just offer an out of court settlement, kay most of the time pildi sila.

A UNION inside the CALL CENTER is too risky an action to take, that will not make any business sense for both parties involved.

[LytSlpr]

i beg to disagree that we have a pro-labor government or DOLE.Â* they even teach employers the work around and i know this for a fact.

btw, we are not talking about ALL call centers here but just a few but then again, it will become precedents.

let's not discount the fact that there were "almost" who succeeded that alone is seriously something not to be ignored and even if just one will be organized it will definitely "rock the entire BPO industry like a hurricane" and no less than the Office of the President will intervene because of its impact.Â* a moral and financial support from a politician let's say the opposition or just even tapping the bigwigs of a big union is all that it will take if someone or a groupd of individuals are really that aggrieved. that is the reason i don't believe it is impossible even at this time to have unions in call centers. probably nobody has enough courage, or cause, or influence yet. in this country if you have the money and influence, nothing is impossible.

i agree, having unions in call centers will probably be the reason for them to close shop and ship out BUT will we also allow them to do all these unfair labor [not necessarily with legal basis] practices to the Filipino worker? The logcial answer shoudl be NO! The question now is how are we going to resolve this? Go to DOLE?

i'll give you a scenario, my ex-GF were making their thesis in completion of their course and they were 6 in the group. 2 of their members backed out and the professor said that they have to repeat the subject all over again because she wants a complete group to finish a thesis. the school's administration supported the professor's decision. so we went to CHED, and CHED said that they can't do anything about that because it is the school's policy or procedure. so the members that were left in the group was not able to graduate and had to repeat the subject/their thesis again. do you think that is fair? plus this might happen again and again...

that is the very same logic when one has issues wiith call center policies and procedures when they go to DOLE. since technically, they have a worked around the system or labor policies, pag antos na lang mo! but if you have union or association, it will not be that easy for them.

[dagget]

i think UNIONS in call centers won't happen

1. Diminishing labor pool

its not surprising that pirating employees from rival companies is going on. With better offers presented on the spot

2. Salaries are more than the average compensation.

UNIONS were formed for Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) which in lay man's term is SALARY increase

3. Call centers are here to stay UNION or no UNION

Philippines is still cheap

an american tech support cost $2,000-$3000 a month plus benefits as a START and it goes higher

i think we can expect salaries to go up due to competition among rival call centers and also reason #1

Even in India they are having a hard time filling up their seats.....


4. I think employees who have difference with management settle it the american way. since this industry is controlled by americans. Discuss it professionally and be frank. That's why when you go to the US and work you should make a stand and talk with your boss. Don't do it the Philippine style always spreading gossip. Go straight to the root of the problem. Think american. don' think Filipino style.

[LytSlpr]

i think UNIONS in call centers won't happen

1. Diminishing labor pool

its not surprising that pirating employees from rival companies is going on. With better offers presented on the spot

2. Salaries are more than the average compensation.

UNIONS were formed for Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) which in lay man's term is SALARY increase

3. Call centers are here to stay UNION or no UNION

Philippines is still cheap

an american tech support cost $2,000-$3000 a month plus benefits as a START and it goes higher

i think we can expect salaries to go up due to competition among rival call centers and also reason #1

Even in India they are having a hard time filling up their seats.....


4. I think employees who have difference with management settle it the american way. since this industry is controlled by americans. Discuss it professionally and be frank. That's why when you go to the US and work you should make a stand and talk with your boss. Don't do it the Philippine style always spreading gossip. Go straight to the root of the problem. Think american. don' think Filipino style.

1] Of course, there are other companies but it's the principle behind and most call centers PROBABLY have more or less the same stand on these issues.

2] Salaries are not the only reasons for putting up a union but there are also salary rate issues among departments which I talked about earlier.Â* So its possible that the aggrieve party will come from a department or 2.

3] If they are here to stay, with UNIONS. So much the better.

4] People tried to settled it "professionally and in the American way"Â* but they (management) were listening the Filipino way and the things discussed here are NOT GOSSIP, propaganda maybe but DEFINITELY not gossip.Â* Most call centers here adapt the American culure but the management is Filipino so when you apply the open-door policy and you by-passed your direct superior expect your life to be a living hell in the workplace.

This was confirmed by 2 or 3 threads that were supported by call center peeps from different centers but was "accidentally" deleted.Â* The information and experiences there were very specific. It makes you wonder...

[dagget]

i was hoping that they emphasize on american culture but still the company acts like a Philippine style nepotism and bata-bata system.

can you make a list on companies having that nepostistic management.

maybe their american owners can read it here.

lets start a blog if its not possible here due to restrictions.

I would really like if you can post the list of those companies managed Philippine style so applicants can be forwarned.

[brian_d]

CHED IS NOT DOLE. Did you have logic classes back in college?
Z is part of Y, X is part of Y then does Z=X? . NOPE!

Sorry, LytSlpr but for a DIRECTOR/ENTREPRENEUR/CAPITALIST your sense of logic and business acumen is very poor. You can't even come about with a decent argument.

Come to think about it, apart you almost everyone are saying the same thing. FOR PURPOSE OF DISCUSSION, THEORITICALLY UNIONS CANNOT BE FORMED AT CALL CENTERS AT THIS POINT.