RELIGION....(part 2)

**Cardinal Bunal** · 01-17-2006, 08:03 PM

See how one is justified by works and not by faith alone - James 2: 24

Of course because your faith is made EVIDENT by your deeds! - verse 2: 18

but as with Titus 3: 5 or Eph. 2: 9 works DO justify but they do NOT add to anyone's salvation and they are NOT the basis of being saved..... besides belief being the first step it SHOULD be the driving force to overcome... (See 1 Jn 5: 3 - 5 ) overcome NEGLECT, overcome SINFUL DESIRES.......... so if you don't have deeds to back you up, ergo you do NOT believe. Again, see that verse in first John I mentioned....

it is God who works in you. (Philippians 2: 13, see also verse 1: 6 of Philippians) spiritual muscle isn't something you can work out on your own..... while your salvation is something you work out it is something you cannot work for. (Eph. 2: 9 )

But through the Gospel of Jesus Christ we are saved (1 Cor. 15: 1 - 2 ) to do every good work. (Eph. 2: 10, 2 Tim. 3: 17 )

**bad donkey!** · 01-18-2006, 12:36 AM

haaaay..the never ending argument..tsk.tsk.tsk..nagkalalis namn mini manny s una about birth control da...but i do agree with him...I am a catholic..the argumen ender should have benn when it was said that the first bible ever written was the RC bible...would anyone insist that there version is the one that is telling the truth??The other versions of the bible used by other religion was rewritten to justify there doctrine...some even go as far as understanding it in a literal sense....If you look back inhistory all of the people that founded other religions today where unhappy with the RC....The protestant religion was founded because of politics....Why do some poeple base there faith only in the bible? ITs the word of God but it was man who wrote the bible not God himself...Call me blasphemus but its true right? MAN did write the bible..So for now I am happy with my catholic faith

**LepsCorp** · 01-18-2006, 03:37 AM

a-a-a... hello

Man did not wrote the bible on his own but inspired by God himself....

Maybe we should just listen to their arguments i'm getting sense on their conversation...

By the way i'm a "Catholic", i'm quite confused of my faith...

**dacs** · 01-18-2006, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Cardinal Bunal

See how one is justified by works and not by faith alone - James 2: 24

Of course because your faith is made EVIDENT by your deeds! - verse 2: 18

That is a very Catholic statement, bro. Yet, you are still insisting that it is only faith you need for salvation and good works will just be a by-product of it. Well, St. Paul disagrees with you. He says, in 1 Corinthians 13:13, that 'faith, hope, charity remain, these three; but the greatest of these is charity'. How could you ever miss this one? St. Paul distinguished between faith, hope and charity. Though interrelated, they are distinct theological virtues.

Originally Posted by Cardinal Bunal

but as with Titus 3: 5 or Eph. 2: 9 works DO justify but they do NOT add to anyone's salvation and they are NOT the basis of being saved.....

Titus 3:5 'not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit'

Again, very Catholic verse. Baptism saves as the Catholic Church teaches. Even St. Peter says that (1 Peter 3:21). You are pointing me - unconsciously, perhaps, but unfortunately at that - to my own explaination of Catholic belief. Never was it taught by the Catholic Church that you need only righteous deeds to be saved. In fact, the Catholic Church teaches that you need faith and charity to accomplish that. As St. Paul distinguished between faith and charity, so does the Catholic Church. Very biblical indeed.

Ephesians 2:9 'it is not from works, so no one may boast'

Again, nothing against Catholic belief on salvation here.

Originally Posted by Cardinal Bunal

besides belief being the first step it SHOULD be the driving force to overcome... (See 1 Jn 5: 3 - 5 ) overcome NEGLECT, overcome SINFUL DESIRES.......... so if you don't have deeds to back you up, ergo you do NOT believe. Again, see that verse in first John I mentioned....

1 John 5:3-5 'For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome, for whoever is begotten by God conquers the world. And the victory that conquers the world is our faith. Who (indeed) is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?'

What part of these verses is against Catholic belief of salvation? None. Instead Matthew 7:21-23 ('"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'') runs against your reasoning. Obviously, these people already believe because only through the Holy Spirit will one be able to call Jesus Christ as Lord. They did mighty deed in the name of Christ. Yet, they still are not recognized by Christ. With faith, you can do mighty deeds in the name of Christ. But only with faith and charity will you be recognized by Christ.

Look at Matthew 17:20 (He said to them, "Because of your little faith. Amen, I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."). The faith mentioned by Christ Himself here is real and the one every Christian should possess. Yet, 1 Corinthians 13:2 (And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have charity, I am nothing.) states that it not faith alone that you need but, most of all, you need charity.

Originally Posted by Cardinal Bunal

it is God who works in you. (Philippians 2: 13, see also verse 1: 6 of Philippians) spiritual muscle isn't something you can work out on your own..... while your salvation is something you work out it is something you cannot work for. (Eph. 2: 9 )

Wrong. God do the prompting; we need to respond. God would not take away our free will to do good works. Philippians 1:6 (I am confident of this, that the one who began a good work in you will continue to complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.) says the same thing. For Philippians 2:12-13 (And so, my beloved ones, just as you have always obeyed, not only as when I am present, but much more now in my absence -- with fear and trembling work out your salvation. For it is God who works in you both the will and the doing, according to [His] good will.), here is a commentary by one Catholic theologian

To work out salvation with fear and trembling does not mean to be greatly frightened, "I might be eternally lost!" No the phrase, with fear and trembling, had been overworked. Such things happen in any language, and then they lose their force. We gather this about our phrase from 2 Corinthians 7:15, where Paul says of Titus: "You received him with fear and trembling." Really, relations with Corinth had been bad -- so no fear and trembling. It means merely "respectfully." Again Psalm 2:11 says: "Serve the Lord with fear,and rejoice before Him; with trembling pay honor to Him." We note the combination of fear, trembling, and rejoicing. Also, later in Philippians, (3:1 and 4:4) Paul says "rejoice in the Lord," even with the "fear and trembling."

As we shall see, when we act, doing either good or evil, we use the power of God, the First Cause. This calls for great respect of course. He is not responsible for the evil; we might consider an electric outlet. The power company provides power, but the customer decides which way it is to be used.

We note too in passing that to speak of working out salvation hardly fits well with the Protestant notion that one can be infallibly saved by just one act, "taking Christ as your personal Savior," after which no matter how much one sins, salvation is still infallibly assured.

Most versions seem to be reluctant to bring out the full force of the Greek here -- as we did in our version. For it seems to say that God causes the free decision of our will -- leaving us with a great problem, of course. Thus one version says: "It is God who begets in you any measure of desire or achievement." We notice that between desire and achievement there is a decision of the will -- the version we cited simply omits it. That could imply that we alone cause the decision, God does not. So we could do good without grace, which is Pelagianism. So we need to study the matter carefully.

We translated the Greek energein as works, that is, produces. That Greek verb commonly in Paul means a supernatural force at work.

We translated the Greek thelein as will, rather than desire.

In 5th century B.C. Athens, the word could not mean will, in the sense of a decision of the will. It meant desire. But Paul is centuries later, and the words have changed sense. It still could mean desire, but also in Paul's day it could mean a decision of the will.

How can we know which it means? The Second Council of Orange was a local council, but because of special approbation of Pope Boniface II, it has the force of a general council in its decrees. That Council helps us greatly in its Canon 4 (DS 374): "If anyone contends that God waits for our will to be cleansed from sin, and does not confess that the fact that we will to be cleansed happens in us through the infusion and operation of the Holy Spirit in us, he resists the Holy Spirit Himself who said through Solomon, 'The will is prepared by the Lord' [Proverbs 8:35], and the Apostle [St. Paul] who preaches in a salutary way: 'It is God who works in you both the will and the doing, in accord with good will." The Council was writing against the heresy of Pelagius, who said we do not need grace for salvation. Now if St. Paul meant that God causes only the desire, and not also the act of will, then we would not need grace for the act of will -- and we would have Pelagianism, which denied the need for grace.

So, difficult as it is to see, we must admit that God causes in us even the good act of will.

The Fathers of the Church knew a good philosophy can help much in studying Scripture. They, not knowing Aristotle, used Plato and found much help. St. Thomas Aquinas steered us to use Aristotle. Now Aristotle would reason thus: Suppose I am at one point on the earth, and want to travel to another. First I must have the capacity for the travel. If the trip is made, then that capacity is filled or fulfilled. He liked the words potency and act instead of capacity and fulfillment -- the labels are not important. The idea is evident, even if one does not accept Aristotle's system in general. But then we notice that this rise from potency to act is found whenever there is any change at all. We call it a rise because at the start there is some emptiness on hand, which would like to be filled or fulfilled. So there is added being at the top of the rise. Question: Where does the added being come from? No one lifts himself off the ground by his shoelaces -- he cannot give himself what he does not have. So if I am causing the change, where did I get the added being? Perhaps I had some of it in stock, as it were, within me. But where did that part of me get the added being? I must look to an outside source. But where did it get it? -- and I might picture a long or short chain of sources. But until I find a source that does not labor under the problem of getting up to act, I have not solved the problem -- rather, a larger load to pull is being accumulated. That being that finally explains, provides the power, is what Aristotle calls the First Cause, or God. He does not have to get up from potency to act, He simply is up. He simply is actuality.

But now, we add to what Aristotle gave us: When I make a decision of my will -- there is a rise from potency to act. Clearly, at the start of the power chain must be God. So it is He who works in me both the will and the doing. (The doing also involves such a rise). He does this, says Paul, "according to [His] good will." That is, as He pleases. As the Council of Orange said, He does not have to wait for me. Rather, He causes my desire to be cleansed of sin!

Now we can see: we need the power of the First Cause, God, when we make a decision, good or evil. So we surely must "work with fear and trembling" that is, with great respect.

But, how do we reconcile this with free will? Sometimes in theology we meet two statements that seem to clash. We must then recheck our work. But if we do not find any error, then we must avoid forcing either statement. We must say that there can be mysteries in divine things. So we will hold onto both, hoping someone sometime will find how to put the two together.

The first truth was that God causes the good decision. The second truth is this: Even though God causes the good decision of my will, yet Scripture constantly urges us to return to God. 2 Corinthians 6:1 says, "We exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain." So I must be able -- somehow -- to determine whether or not His grace comes in vain.

How put the two things together? Theologians have labored -- and wrangled -- for centuries over this. Has the Church given the answer? No, only a fragment of it (DS 1554). However, it does seem an answer can be found. For a new proposal, please see this author's Our Father's Plan, chapter 18. Here is a sketch: God sends an actual grace to me, and with no help from me it does two things: it causes me to see something as good, and then, almost automatically, it makes me favorably disposed to it. When these two things are in place, I could not make a decision to accept the grace -- Philippians 2:13 stops that -- but I could reject. If I do not reject, that is, if I make no decision at all (not even a decision not to reject) then grace continues in its course, and works in me both the will and the doing, in such a way that at the same time I am cooperating with grace, by power being received at the same moment from grace.

Now we can see the basis for humility. In view of what we have just said of our total dependence on God, we see that if one accepts the explanation proposed using Aristotle's framework, we would have to say that if I have a ledger for myself, and on the credit page I want to write what I have contributed in the rock bottom sense (that is, what I have not received from God, but have made up entirely by myself) to doing good -- it is a zero, the lack of a decision against grace. How much self-esteem does that justify? But there is also a debit page, the number for my sins. Those are my own, not received from God. So my self-esteem goes below zero.

Humility leads me to accept this at every level of my being -- for there is a danger that like the Pharisee in the temple, I might use words like his, "O God I give you thanks . . .," while really, at least subconsciously, be grabbing credit for myself.

This text is most helpful to dwell on, for spiritual growth. It helps one to see that every bit of good I am and have and do is God's gift to me (cf. 1 Corinthians 4:7). So St. Augustine is terribly right when he says (Epistle 194.5.29): "When God crowns your merits, He crowns nothing other than His own gifts."

Could we weaken the force of these verses by noting that there is a Hebrew pattern that attributes to direct action of God that which He really just permits? There is such a pattern. For example, in 1 Samuel 4:3 (literal version of the Hebrew) after a defeat, the Hebrews said: "Why did God strike us today before the face of the Philistines?" -- even though they knew it was the Philistines who had hit them.

But we cannot say verses 12-13 are such a pattern -- for the text of the Council of Orange, and the philosophical reasoning, both demand the stronger understanding. To weaken it that way would be, again, Pelagianism.

Originally Posted by Cardinal Bunal

But through the Gospel of Jesus Christ we are saved (1 Cor. 15: 1 - 2 ) to do every good work. (Eph. 2: 10, 2 Tim. 3: 17 )

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand. Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.)

Very good, bro. That again is a very Catholic quotation. St. Paul is talking to Corinthian Christian - fellow believers - and told them that they are being saved - not saved but being saved - by the gospel with the condition (conditional, bro, and therefore not assured) that they hold fast to the word the apostle has preached. If not, they would have believed in vain.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.)

Very good Catholic verses, bro. May I ask where in the Bible is the list of scripture enumerated? You cannot find it (except perhaps in the table of contents and that would be absurd in the context we are in). Strictly speaking, the only sure thing you can conclude here is that it refers to the Old Testament books as there was no Christian list of scripture at the time. There are different list of 'scripture' found in different locations. It was the Catholic Church who finally decided in the Council of Hippo and Carthage which should be considered as part of Christian scripture.

God bless.

**Von!-x** · 01-18-2006, 11:31 AM

Too long religious discussions, adding more confusion to the confused.

One thing is certain, we shall all die. For the athiests, death is the end of everything. For those who believe in God, it is the point where we shall face him. Are we going to be judged according to our religious affiliations? Works? knowledge of our churches' doctrines? Can the answer be found in the Catholic bible or the protestant's bible? Or in the catholic tradition?

Acts 4:12 "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

There is hope for salvation for all of us, and we can be assured of that while we are still living.

1 John 5: 12-14
12. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

**dacs** · 01-18-2006, 01:29 PM