RELIGION....(part 2)

[Von!-x]

---

"From my own experiences dealing with friends or relatives who left the
Catholic Church, arguments and debates do not accomplish anything. There
is no substitute to an honest effort to re-examine one's views by reading
the appropriate books." - From the article fo Bernie Villegas posted above.

I assume that this is Bernie Villegas of the UA&P. I've attented some of Bernie's economic forum, and he is sincere in what he believes and says. "There is no substitute to an honest effort to re-examine one's views by reading the appropriate books" For me, there is only one appropriate book, that is the Bible. Other readings are leaned towards the interpretation of the writer or the institution he represents.

[Cardinal Bunal]

By the way, besides the salvation by works support that the Pentecostals give, they are also all for the ecumenical movement, something along the lines of it will be through Rome that all will experience Christendom. And they probably don't have issues with the Marian movement either, read more

HERE

[dacs]

Salvation is by grace through faith... It is a grace of God- God showing love to the sinners, and we can have the GRACE through faith-the acknowldegment of HIS grace.

What happens next if you have faith (genuine) in Him? Read John 1:12 ... YOU automatically became HIS child! REad it again... YEp, you will become HIS child.

Question: Will the relationship of FAther and Son be ever detached?
Answer: NO.

Wrong. Have you ever read Matthew 7:21-23? Sirach 16:12-14 together with Romans 2:5-11? Try Ezekiel 18: 26-30 and 33:13-14? Does God change His mind regarding what is just? Be sure that you read Ephesians 5:4-7 also.

Finally, is not the wages of sin death as in Romans 6:23? Is not death the absence of Jesus Christ who is Life?

Q: So what's the relevance?
A: You are assured of SALVATION. YOU as His child, become attached to HIM forever. READ JOhn 10:30..."No one can snatch you from the FAther's Hand..."

Okay, you have now read the quoted verses above. Search your soul.

Q: Will you lose your salvation if you commit sin?
A: No. You have the sealed relationship...Ephesians 1:13...
You will only suffer consequence...Just as a loving Father cares for His child...

So, you are rejecting Hebrews 10:26-29? Even Saint Paul admitted that he did not stand acquitted in 1 Corinthians 4:4-5. Are you then better suited to judge your salvation than Saint Paul?

Note:
Undeniably, you CAN commit sin. The difference is you are under the PARDON of a Father not as the JUDGe (CHRIST). Committing sin is not a privilege under this Pardon.

You mean you are pardoned of all your past, present and future sins once you have taken Christ as your own personal savior? The Bible denies that (Romans 3: 25). Easy believism indeed. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit have the same Will. What is the Will of God the Father is the Will of the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is one of the reason that they are called the Holy Trinity.

The MARK of a TRUE SAVED believer is that he/she does not continue to sin.
1 John 5:18 (Easy believism is not salvation).

Thank you for affirming my conviction. To sin is to commit a sinful act or to omit doing a charitable act. Either way, you will commit sin. If you see a beggar in the street less than fully clothed, do you stop and clothe him? If not, then you have omitted doing a charitable act. You have sinned. By your statement above, it would be very difficult to attain salvation and assurance of salvation would be nearly impossible.

For me, SALVATION is not maintained but shown. Once you are SAVED (Pardoned) you don't have to keep on sinning. Having CHRIST acknowledged through FAITH is not a LICENSE to sin.

Indeed, being redeemed is not a license to sin. Instead, it is a commitment to stop sinning. Yet, as you have already stated, you can still sin. You still have to choose between sin and charity. You still have your free will. You still have to 'work out your salvation with fear and trembling' (Philippians 2:12) and to fear that, after having preached to others, you yourself should be disqualified (1 Corinthians 9:27).

Will a PARDONED person from eternal damnation wants to commit sin and return to the punishment? NO...

Will you?

Theoretically, no. Realistically, quite possible. Have you never sinned again after you have been 'pardoned'? Please remember that you are saying that a 'pardoned' person from eternal damnation will not want to commit a sin. All sinful acts must be willful. Have you never willfully committed a sin after you have been pardoned? Your answer should be no or else you have your argument will self-destruct.

Fast Facts: (SALVATION 101)

SALVATION is by grace through FAITH (Ephesians 2:8-9). YOU acknowledge that none can ever save you except CHRIST (Romans 3:10) and that HE is the true God that will deliver you from hell.

In I John 1:9...After you acknowledge God, you must confess your SIN to HIm for clearly God abhors SIN. Even a fade dot of sin is not permissible in HEaven.

'Even a fade dot of sin is not permissible in HEaven' --- that is quite a big condition for heaven, wouldn't you think so? How about all those years when no Christian has ever reach China? Are all those souls in Hell just because they had not and could not possibly have faith in Christ whom they do not know and have not heard? Your pre-requisite of salvation is indeed an impossible criterium for these people.

As John the Baptist preach: REPENT and believe!

And Christ said : 'Amen, Amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.' Then, the explaination followed in the verses of Titus 3:4-7 – "But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior…" By the command of Christ in Matthew 28 19 – "Go therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit…" – Peter also demanded in Acts 2:38-41 – "Peter [said] to them, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.'"

Baptism also saves.

Receive JESUS CHRIST in your life and HE will deliver you from eternal death...
ENJOY the FATHER-CHILD relationship....

You'll know that you have HIs grace once you hate sin....

Don't be like a pig...after bathing it'll return to the muds. It is not a sign of a person who receives pardon from his redeemer!

May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

[dacs]

As if there aren't any confliciting interpretations in the RCC ;-b

Cite examples please - or else we will think that you are just making this up.

Who but the Spirit of God knows the thoughts of God? 1 No one knows it but The One who wrote it. 2 For sure those Traditions weren't mystical dogmas, but they included ways of fellowshipping and how to conduct things in God's household. But even the Scriptures are a sufficient chronicle of how they went about.. (the epistles of Paul, the Acts )

1. 1 Cor. 2:11
2. Rev. 19: 11 - 13

Ever heard of these words "brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." Saint Paul uttered those words and put oral tradition (Sacred Tradition) with written tradition (Sacred Scripture). For around fifteen centuries, all of Christianity agrees to this deposit of faith - that the Word of God is transmitted both in the Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. You cannot find support on your Bible-alone assertion in any of the early Christain writers.

And those Traditions are NOT to be confused with a doctrine called Traditions of the Roman Church.

Now, you are confused. You are probably blinded by your own prejudice to the Church. I just wonder who ever told you of these things because you took it all - hook, line and sinker.

[brown_dog]

2 all freakin' Catholics u worship God right? and u obey his commandments? if yes, then why do u make other false gods? that's blasphemy!!! you blasphemist catholics you even praise & worship the freakin' virgin mary which also known as "God's Concubine!!!" you even listen 2 a freakin priest which most of them are unclean faggots!!! u even have festivals called "Sinulog"
in which u praise that freakin small doll of urs!!! who wears some red cape like some kind of Wanna be Superman Reject!!! You've been blinded by the truth by keep on making ur religion as an opium! I pity u all! what a shame! damn u damn u 2 hell!

I know what you mean,
these are the front acts of the anti-christ.

True religion begins with seeking christ and the his truth first for yourself
rather than try looking for the best religion this world has to offer.

[brownbrawn]

2 all freakin' Catholics u worship God right? and u obey his commandments? if yes, then why do u make other false gods? that's blasphemy!!! you blasphemist catholics you even praise & worship the freakin' virgin mary which also known as "God's Concubine!!!" you even listen 2 a freakin priest which most of them are unclean faggots!!! u even have festivals called "Sinulog"
in which u praise that freakin small doll of urs!!! who wears some red cape like some kind of Wanna be Superman Reject!!! You've been blinded by the truth by keep on making ur religion as an opium! I pity u all! what a shame! damn u damn u 2 hell!

I know what you mean,
these are the front acts of the anti-christ.

True religion begins with seeking christ and the his truth first for yourself
rather than try looking for the best religion this world has to offer.

Grabe ning gipanulti nui Lawrencenc ahhh.

Imagine lets enumerate.

Saints- False Gods
Virigin Mary - God's concubine
Sto. Nino - doll

For us Catholics, this is highest blasphemies of all.

Let us pray for the soul of Lawrencenc. He does not know what he is doing.

[Cardinal Bunal]

Dacs,

I already have... in the previous locked version of the thread.

e.g. Many have complied with the requirements of salvation in the RCC, but nganong misahan pa man ang santopapa? I'm sure it isn't just an "honorary mass" - the requiem mass surely has got to be for, yes the sins of the attenders and most likely, also the sins of the departed one - who has already complied with the requirements of salvation.

Why no confidence yet just assumptions 1 about salvation WITHOUT a mass after the person has passed?
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1. Someone on the radio said something about the holy father (John Paul 2) probably in his house in Heaven looking through the clouds...

[mannyamador]

As if there aren't any confliciting interpretations in the RCC ;-b

There aren't any official, doctrinal ones. Nota single one. Perosnal interpretations of priests, bishops, even popes do NOT make Catholic doctrine.

And those Traditions are NOT to be confused with a doctrine called Traditions of the Roman Church.

Let's see if you even know what these so-called traditions of the roman church are. Kindly state them. Well?

[mannyamador]

"There is no substitute to an honest effort to re-examine one's views by reading the appropriate books" For me, there is only one appropriate book, that is the Bible. Other readings are leaned towards the interpretation of the writer or the institution he represents.

But how do you KNOW that? Who determined for you that the Bible was that book? And who detemrined what should be in the Bible?

Was it God? Did God come to you personally and hand you a Bible? Did He tell you personally what was supposed to be in it?

God obviously didn't. So WHO did it for you?

There is only one true answer: the Catholic Church compiled the Bible and decided what books were to be in it. No other church did. Even Martin Luther acknowledged that.

[dacs]

Dacs,

I already have... in the previous locked version of the thread.

e.g. Many have complied with the requirements of salvation in the RCC, but nganong misahan pa man ang santopapa? I'm sure it isn't just an "honorary mass" - the requiem mass surely has got to be for, yes the sins of the attenders and most likely, also the sins of the departed one - who has already complied with the requirements of salvation.

''Many have complied with the requirements of salvation in the RCC, but nganong misahan pa man ang santopapa? I don't understand you, bro. The first part of your statement speaks about a number of people, yet the second part is completely disconnected. You sure have a weird logic going on.

What requirements? That you die in a state of grace? Indeed, the Church will work to assist the faithfuls in preparing themselves for death. The sacrament of penance and anointing of the sick are specifically meant for that. Yet, what is grace and what is this state of grace I am talking about? You are not Catholic and you will never understand this grace that have been spoken of since the time of the apostles.

During a person's lifetime, there may be sinful acts (by omission or commission) that he may not have ask for forgiveness and have not done penance for. Justice demands a recompense. Even a pope is not exempt. He is still subject to concupiscence - a desire of the lower appetite contrary to reason. There was a time that a pope was a child, an adolescent, a layman (so are all of us). We, the living, will intercede for those who have died. The best we can do is to offer a Holy Mass for the repose of the soul.

Why no confidence yet just assumptions 1 about salvation WITHOUT a mass after the person has passed?
--------------------
1. Someone on the radio said something about the holy father (John Paul 2) probably in his house in Heaven looking through the clouds...

We have been redeemed, yes. We have now a possibility of entering heaven. Yet, assurance of salvation (that is, you are sure you going to heaven even before the judgment day whatever happens after you have taken Christ as your own personal savior) is entirely unbiblical. No orthodox Christian writer before Martin Luther ever wrote of such a belief among Christians. Saint Paul knew that he may be disqualified even if he is among the apostles. He enjoined the early Christians to work out their salvation with fear and trembling - an exhortation understood by early Christian writers as that there is no assurance of salvation. Yet, Protestant denominations re-interpreted such an exhortation to fit their own peculiar system of belief. Read the early Christian writers, bro, and know the difference.

The Holy Mass, bro? You should read St. John Chrysostom or St. Ignatius of Antioch (the bishop of Antioch at the time that the Apostle John was still alive). Read the doctors and fathers of the Church about their belief in the Holy Eucharist. It may have taken a couple of centuries before the doctrine of real presence was finally defined definitely, but it was already there early on and is part of the deposit of faith.