RELIGION....(part 2)

[Cardinal Bunal]

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Isaiah calls it "The Book" and in some texts "The Scroll and says nothing is lacking because the mouth of the Lord has spoken and has gathered it and compiled it. 1, Paul, even at a time when NOT everyone had every book, he called what he wrote "this Gospel" 2 and indeed his epistles even contain ENOUGH knowledge and information about what God wants his people to know of salvation. Paul again writes that even Scripture is good enough for rebuking error, and it's other most important use - training in righteousness. 3 he doesn't use "Scripture alone" of course, but in that in the two previous verses I stated, it's implicit that the Scriptures are all-sufficient.

1. Isaiah 34: 16
2. 1 Cor. 15: 2
3. 2 Tim 3: 16

Here's another debate:

What are "My Words?" Or What is Written Word anyway? (Matt 24: 35 ) And who are them preachers? (Jn 17: 20 ), Was Jesus also referring already to Ignatius or Thomas Aquinas or other theologians? Or was he referring to the prophets and apostles only? Who are the foundation of the church, with Christ Jesus himself as the Chief Cornerstone. (Eph. 2: 19 - 22 )

Again, the church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. But what is Truth anyway? (Jn 17: 17 ) and what includes "Written Word?"
This is also debatable... what are other things that include "written Word?"

[Cardinal Bunal]

Plus, in one of the versions it says that The Law and testimony will not see the light of dawn if they don't live according to This Word (Isaiah 8: 20 )

So what is This Word? What is being alluded to anyway? just one of those that imply that Scriptures are ALL-SUFFICIENT although the 2 words "Scripture alone" aren't really found.

[dacs]

I am currently in Manila. So, guys, pardon the not-so-detailed reply.

:mrgreen:

Deeds should be the result of faith and the love of God and showing that love through loving others.

Should be? Â*Ever read that verse "... faith, hope and love; and the greatest of these is love"? Â*Entirely separate! Â*Love here is translated as caritas in Latin - root word for CHARITY. Â*Charity is, to Catholics, the good works that is necessary for salvation and is entirely separate from the biblical idea of faith. Â*Bear in mind that Catholics never believe of good works alone as the means to salvation. Â*Catholics can believe that a person who never knew of Christ, never heard of Christ, and therefore never believe in Christ can be saved through 'caritas' - good works - in recognition of a higher Justice than this world can offer.

If it is done without love and done out of obligation because one wishes to be saved, then it is "salvation by works" which isn't Biblical (Eph. 2: 9 )

What you considered to be non-biblical has never been taught by the Catholic Church.

It has to be out of love that one does his good deeds and actions, without love it is useless, it is merely obligation and NOT the love of God as 1st Corinthians 13 illustrates.

Yet, love is distinct from faith (as has been shown). Â*Faith is as distinct from love as hope - yet all three are instrinsically and metaphysically connected.

The assurance that Von-X! is talking about isn't security per se, but one's ability to profess that he is saved. If there isn't that ability to be certain then absent as well is the understanding of why Christ is called the Saviour.

Before Christ became part of history through His Incarnation, no one can be saved and enjoy the Beatific Vision of God. Â*Moses, Elijah and those faithful prophets are said to have not enjoyed the same condition as after the dying and rising of Christ. It is only when the Sacrifice on the Cross was completed did the possibility of us sinners to be saved exist. Â*Yet, to say that the ability to be certain of our salvation is the reason why Christ is called the Saviour is never articulated by any individual orthodox Christian - beginning during the time of the apostles until the Western Schism.

So, how does one receive salvation, justification, new birth and eternal life?

Here is a quote from one of the articles in Steve Ray's www.catholic-convert.com.

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)?

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)?

By baptism (Jn 3:5; Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)?

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)?

By declaring with our mouths (Lu 12:8; Rom 10:9)?

By coming to a knowledge of the Truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)?

By works (Rom 2:6, 7; James 2:21, 24-25)?

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:?

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)?

By His righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)?

By His cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)?

[dacs]

Plus, in one of the versions it says that The Law and testimony will not see the light of dawn if they don't live according to This Word (Isaiah 8: 20 )

So what is This Word? What is being alluded to anyway? just one of those that imply that Scriptures are ALL-SUFFICIENT although the 2 words "Scripture alone" aren't really found.

You are quoting Isaiah, right? If a Jew would be ask what does that mean, do you think he will give the same answer as you? Where do you find the word 'all-sufficient' in the Bible? Please give us the appropriate Greek word equivalent or the Latin word equivalent.

[Cardinal Bunal]

You are quoting Isaiah, right? If a Jew would be ask what does that mean, do you think he will give the same answer as you? Where do you find the word 'all-sufficient' in the Bible? Please give us the appropriate Greek word equivalent or the Latin word equivalent.

Actually, verse
34: 16 - where nothing is lacking.

[ichor_82283]

For those who says we can be saved by faith, so how are we to live? How sure? If I sin later in life, would i lose my salvation?

Somehow, whether catholics, agnostics or protestants, in the lowest times of our lives, we often ask the question "Will I go to heaven when I die?". The Bible presented heaven as a wonderful city, no night there, roads are paved with gold, no need for a sun, no more tears and sickness, etc...

The answer can be found in the bible. If you insist it isn't there, or insist that the text refers to something else other than assurance of salvation, then you missed a lot - or perhaps, u just missed eternity.

Salvation is by grace through faith... It is a grace of God- God showing love to the sinners, and we can have the GRACE through faith-the acknowldegment of HIS grace.

What happens next if you have faith (genuine) in Him? Read John 1:12 ... YOU automatically became HIS child! REad it again... YEp, you will become HIS child.

Question: Will the relationship of FAther and Son be ever detached?
Answer: NO.

Q: So what's the relevance?
A: You are assured of SALVATION. YOU as His child, become attached to HIM forever. READ JOhn 10:29..."No one can snatch you from the FAther's Hand..."

Q: Will you lose your salvation if you commit sin?
A: No. You have the sealed relationship...Ephesians 1:13...
Â* Â* You will only suffer consequence...Just as a loving Father cares for His child...

Note:
Undeniably, you CAN commit sin. The difference is you are under the PARDON of a Father not as the JUDGe (CHRIST). Committing sin is not a privilege under this Pardon.

The MARK of a TRUE SAVED believer is that he/she does not continue to sin.
1 John 5:18 (Easy believism is not salvation).

For me, SALVATION is not maintained but shown. Once you are SAVED (Pardoned) you don't have to keep on sinning. Having CHRIST acknowledged through FAITH is not a LICENSE to sin.

Will a PARDONED person from eternal damnation wants to commit sin and return to the punishment? NO...

Will you?

Fast Facts: (SALVATION 101)

SALVATION is by grace through FAITH (Ephesians 2:8-9). YOU acknowledge that none can ever save you except CHRIST (Romans 3:10) and that HE is the true God that will deliver you from hell.

In I John 1:9...After you acknowledge God, you must confess your SIN to HIm for clearly God abhors SIN. Even a fade dot of sin is not permissible in HEaven.

As John the Baptist preach: REPENT and believe!

Receive JESUS CHRIST in your life and HE will deliver you from eternal death...
ENJOY the FATHER-CHILD relationship....

You'll know that you have HIs grace once you hate sin....

Don't be like a pig...after bathing it'll return to the muds. It is not a sign of a person who receives pardon from his redeemer!

[Cardinal Bunal]

I hope you stick around and keep posting here, Ichor

[mannyamador]

(Re) Converting Born-Again Christians
Bernardo M. Villegas

November 28, 2003 Manila Bulletin

DO you have a relative or friend who left the Catholic faith and became a
born-again Protestant? Or are you yourself a former Catholic who now
swears to "Sola Scriptura" (the Bible alone) or refuses to pray to the
Blessed Virgin Mary or other saints?

With all due respects to the sincerity of those who left the Catholic
faith, I am positive they really never understood the doctrines of
Catholicism. This conviction of mine has been reinforced by the second
volume of Surprised by Truth - a collection of eye-opening accounts by
more than a dozen new Catholics who reveal why they changed their minds
about their old beliefs and entered (or re-entered) the Catholic Church.
The book is a must for all those who sincerely want answers to their
objections to or doubts about the main tenets of the Catholic faith.

One of the essays in this book is titled "A Cafeteria Catholic Returns to
the Table of the Lord." Reared in the Catholic faith, Nancy Montgomery
tells the story about how she and her husband almost left the Church were
it not for a series of books that opened her eyes to the real doctrine
(not a caricature) of the Catholic faith. Let her tell the story herself:
"...Jeff was soon transferred to a new job on the East Coast. Because our
oldest child would have to attend school in a very dangerous neighborhood,
we decided to homeschool. It was a Godsend.

"From other Catholic homeschoolers, I started hearing about Catholic
writers and speakers unknown to me before. First it was an audiotape of
Scott Hahn, a Protestant minister who had become Catholic. A friend told
me about Patrick Madrid's Surprised by Truth, a collection of several
converts' spiritual journeys into the Catholic faith. Then I learned of
Fr. Mitch Pacwa, a priest whose books explain the New Age phenomenon and
offer spiritual direction to confused, frustrated Catholics. I discovered
Envoy, a new contemporary magazine for Catholics. A tape by former
Protestant minister Steve Wood explained Marian devotion to me. For the
first time, I found myself -- an average Catholic -- being encouraged to
read such writings as papal encyclicals, the Catechism of the Catholic
Church, the documents of Vatican II, and the lives of the saints.

"In no time at all, I had built a virtual Jacob's ladder of books on my
night stand, and I used it to climb toward God every night before falling
asleep, one book at a time. I was thrilled to learn from these books what
the Church really teaches and how sensible it is. One issue, however,
still gave me trouble: contraception. I just couldn't accept the Church's
teaching about it. "One morning, while out walking, I pressed God with
another bold prayer. 'If You don't help me understand the Church's
teaching on contraception, I'll never be able to embrace it.' As I
approached my house, I noticed in my mailbox an issue of a magazine called
Catholic Dossier -- and the issue's theme was contraception. I began to
read.

"The more I learned about Pope Paul VI's predictions in his encyclical
Humanae Vitae (On human life) of the sinister effects of contraception,
the more I found myself muttering, 'People are willing to believe that
Nostradamus could predict the future, but they refuse to see the truth of
these predictions about contraception -- which have already come to pass!"

From my own experiences dealing with friends or relatives who left the
Catholic Church, arguments and debates do not accomplish anything. There
is no substitute to an honest effort to re-examine one's views by reading
the appropriate books.

As Marcus Grodi, a convert himself, writes in the Foreword to Surprised By
Truth (Volume 2): "Over years of careful but mostly mindless
construction, each of us has built a wall around our soul to protect our
vulnerable selves. Conversion - whether to Jesus Christ or subsequently to
His Church - happens when a crack forms in this wall of emotional and
intellectual defenses. Those cracks can occur at any time. The Spirit uses
crises or success, pain or pleasure, temptation or inspiration to make
these cracks. Since we often grasp the first thing that penetrates through
them, evangelization involves, not making those cracks - that's God's
business - but surrounding those defenses with Truth in anticipation of
the cracks that will form. That's why there's hardly a better tool for
communicating the fullness of the Catholic Faith in a winsome and moving
way than this collection of personal stories."

I would highly recommend Surprised By Truth (Volumes 1 and 2) to Catholics
who want to understand their faith better or non-Catholics honestly
seeking the truth. Copies are available at Totus Bookstore, 2nd Floor, Red
Ribbon Bldg., Connecticut corner Missouri Sts., Greenhills, San Juan, Tel.
No. 723-4326, e-mail: totusbookstore.com . I cannot think of a better
Christmas gift for someone you want to attract back to the full truth of
the Catholic faith.

[mannyamador]

he doesn't use "Scripture alone" of course, but in that in the two previous verses I stated, it's implicit that the Scriptures are all-sufficient.

That's YOUR interpretation of Paul. But it's NOT explicitly taught in the Bible. And since you aren't an infallible authority,
how do we know it's correct? What makes it better than other conflicting interpeetations? Nothing, actually.

Take note that the Bible itself denies that it is sufficient as the complete rule of faith. In 2 tim. 2:2 Paul says that the
tradition which is handed down by word of mouth contains much Christian teaching. Paul also said to "stand firm and
hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).

Let me quote John Henry Newman:

"It is quite evident that this passage furnishes no argument whatever that the sacred Scripture,
without Tradition, is the sole rule of faith; for, although sacred Scripture is profitable for these
four ends, still it is not said to be sufficient. The Apostle [Paul] requires the aid of Tradition
(2 Thess. 2:15). Moreover, the Apostle here refers to the scriptures which Timothy was taught
in his infancy.

"Now, a good part of the New Testament was not written in his boyhood: Some of the Catholic
epistles were not written even when Paul wrote this, and none of the books of the New
Testament were then placed on the canon of the Scripture books. He refers, then, to the
scriptures of the Old Testament, and, if the argument from this passage proved anything, it
would prove too much, viz., that the scriptures of the New Testament were not necessary for
a rule of faith."

Sola scriptura is NOT taught in the Bible. It is a false teaching.

[Cardinal Bunal]

As if there aren't any confliciting interpretations in the RCC ;-b

Who but the Spirit of God knows the thoughts of God? 1 No one knows it but The One who wrote it. 2 For sure those Traditions weren't mystical dogmas, but they included ways of fellowshipping and how to conduct things in God's household. But even the Scriptures are a sufficient chronicle of how they went about.. (the epistles of Paul, the Acts )

And those Traditions are NOT to be confused with a doctrine called Traditions of the Roman Church.

1. 1 Cor. 2:11
2. Rev. 19: 11 - 13