RELIGION

[whiteoleander]

---

sorry to butt in ...

but there has been lots of issues that early church fathers had been answered ,including the questions here ... there are voluminous works by early church fathers that points out each and every question protestants had thrown in today , do you really think these questions hasnt been brought up by early christians ?
unfortunately , nominal catholics and protestants tries to find answers in the wrong place. or they try to find answers that "they think" is about right.
but what we are trying to protect is the word and works transmitted by the apostles down to the early church fathers to the priests today.

Don't worry I use New American Bible: The New Catholic Translation... but when the Church says "We are the One True Mystical Body" and when they say Traditions along with the Scriptures are written word, Christians with reservations (and being wise by having so) will respond: That is what is in question

Traditions weren't in any of the "documents", - the ones widely used in churches in the early days for practice of truth and doctrinal instructions, compiled to what we know today as The Bible. ...

tra·di·tionÂ* n.
The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication.

A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.
A set of such customs and usages viewed as a coherent body of precedents influencing the present: followed family tradition in dress and manners. See Synonyms at heritage.
A body of unwritten religious precepts.
A time-honored practice or set of such practices.
Law. Transfer of property to another.

and what does the scripture says about this ?


1Co 11:2 - Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

Ga 1:14 - And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

2Th 2:15 - Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

(from the The New King James Version)


and who could possibly keep the traditions and the words written in what we call the bible today ? who could be the very people who kept it ? let see ...

St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-8
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125) -- also called Xystus I
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22)
St. Urban I (222-30)
St. Pontain (230-35)
St. Anterus (235-36)
St. Fabian (236-50)
St. Cornelius (251-53)
St. Lucius I (253-54)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-25
St. Dionysius (260-26
St. Felix I (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296) -- also called Gaius
St. Marcellinus (296-304)
St. Marcellus I (308-309)
St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
St. Miltiades (311-14)
St. Sylvester I (314-35)
St. Marcus (336)
St. Julius I (337-52)
Liberius (352-66)
St. Damasus I (366-83)
St. Siricius (384-99)
St. Anastasius I (399-401)
St. Innocent I (401-17)
St. Zosimus (417-1
St. Boniface I (418-22)
St. Celestine I (422-32)
St. Sixtus III (432-40)
St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
St. Hilarius (461-6
St. Simplicius (468-83)
St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
St. Gelasius I (492-96)
Anastasius II (496-9
St. Symmachus (498-514)
St. Hormisdas (514-23)
St. John I (523-26)
St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
Boniface II (530-32)
John II (533-35)
St. Agapetus I (535-36) -- also called Agapitus I
St. Silverius (536-37)
Vigilius (537-55)
Pelagius I (556-61)
John III (561-74)
Benedict I (575-79)
Pelagius II (579-90)
St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
Sabinian (604-606)
Boniface III (607)
St. Boniface IV (608-15)
St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-1
Boniface V (619-25)
Honorius I (625-3
Severinus (640)
John IV (640-42)
Theodore I (642-49)
St. Martin I (649-55)
St. Eugene I (655-57)
St. Vitalian (657-72)
Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
Donus (676-7
St. Agatho (678-81)
St. Leo II (682-83)
St. Benedict II (684-85)
John V (685-86)
Conon (686-87)
St. Sergius I (687-701)
John VI (701-05)
John VII (705-07)
Sisinnius (70
Constantine (708-15)
St. Gregory II (715-31)
St. Gregory III (731-41)
St. Zachary (741-52)
Stephen II (752) -- Because he died before being consecrated, some lists (including the Vatican's official list) omit him.
Stephen III (752-57)
St. Paul I (757-67)
Stephen IV (767-72)
Adrian I (772-95)
St. Leo III (795-816)
Stephen V (816-17)
St. Paschal I (817-24)
Eugene II (824-27)
Valentine (827)
Gregory IV (827-44)
Sergius II (844-47)
St. Leo IV (847-55)
Benedict III (855-5
St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-67)
Adrian II (867-72)
John VIII (872-82)
Marinus I (882-84)
St. Adrian III (884-85)
Stephen VI (885-91)
Formosus (891-96)
Boniface VI (896)
Stephen VII (896-97)
Romanus (897)
Theodore II (897)
John IX (898-900)
Benedict IV (900-03)
Leo V (903)
Sergius III (904-11)
Anastasius III (911-13)
Lando (913-14)
John X (914-2
Leo VI (92
Stephen VIII (929-31)
John XI (931-35)
Leo VII (936-39)
Stephen IX (939-42)
Marinus II (942-46)
Agapetus II (946-55)
John XII (955-63)
Leo VIII (963-64)
Benedict V (964)
John XIII (965-72)
Benedict VI (973-74)
Benedict VII (974-83)
John XIV (983-84)
John XV (985-96)
Gregory V (996-99)
Sylvester II (999-1003)
John XVII (1003)
John XVIII (1003-09)
Sergius IV (1009-12)
Benedict VIII (1012-24)
John XIX (1024-32)
Benedict IX (1032-45)
Sylvester III (1045) -- Considered by some to be an antipope
Benedict IX (1045)
Gregory VI (1045-46)
Clement II (1046-47)
Benedict IX (1047-4
Damasus II (104
St. Leo IX (1049-54)
Victor II (1055-57)
Stephen X (1057-5
Nicholas II (1058-61)
Alexander II (1061-73)
St. Gregory VII (1073-85)
Blessed Victor III (1086-87)
Blessed Urban II (1088-99)
Paschal II (1099-111
Gelasius II (1118-19)
Callistus II (1119-24)
Honorius II (1124-30)
Innocent II (1130-43)
Celestine II (1143-44)
Lucius II (1144-45)
Blessed Eugene III (1145-53)
Anastasius IV (1153-54)
Adrian IV (1154-59)
Alexander III (1159-81)
Lucius III (1181-85)
Urban III (1185-87)
Gregory VIII (1187)
Clement III (1187-91)
Celestine III (1191-9
Innocent III (1198-1216)
Honorius III (1216-27)
Gregory IX (1227-41)
Celestine IV (1241)
Innocent IV (1243-54)
Alexander IV (1254-61)
Urban IV (1261-64)
Clement IV (1265-6
Blessed Gregory X (1271-76)
Blessed Innocent V (1276)
Adrian V (1276)
John XXI (1276-77)
Nicholas III (1277-80)
Martin IV (1281-85)
Honorius IV (1285-87)
Nicholas IV (1288-92)
St. Celestine V (1294)
Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
Blessed Benedict XI (1303-04)
Clement V (1305-14)
John XXII (1316-34)
Benedict XII (1334-42)
Clement VI (1342-52)
Innocent VI (1352-62)
Blessed Urban V (1362-70)
Gregory XI (1370-7
Urban VI (1378-89)
Boniface IX (1389-1404)
Innocent VII (1404-06)
Gregory XII (1406-15)
Martin V (1417-31)
Eugene IV (1431-47)
Nicholas V (1447-55)
Callistus III (1455-5
Pius II (1458-64)
Paul II (1464-71)
Sixtus IV (1471-84)
Innocent VIII (1484-92)
Alexander VI (1492-1503)
Pius III (1503)
Julius II (1503-13)
Leo X (1513-21)
Adrian VI (1522-23)
Clement VII (1523-34)
Paul III (1534-49)
Julius III (1550-55)
Marcellus II (1555)
Paul IV (1555-59)
Pius IV (1559-65)
St. Pius V (1566-72)
Gregory XIII (1572-85)
Sixtus V (1585-90)
Urban VII (1590)
Gregory XIV (1590-91)
Innocent IX (1591)
Clement VIII (1592-1605)
Leo XI (1605)
Paul V (1605-21)
Gregory XV (1621-23)
Urban VIII (1623-44)
Innocent X (1644-55)
Alexander VII (1655-67)
Clement IX (1667-69)
Clement X (1670-76)
Blessed Innocent XI (1676-89)
Alexander VIII (1689-91)
Innocent XII (1691-1700)
Clement XI (1700-21)
Innocent XIII (1721-24)
Benedict XIII (1724-30)
Clement XII (1730-40)
Benedict XIV (1740-5
Clement XIII (1758-69)
Clement XIV (1769-74)
Pius VI (1775-99)
Pius VII (1800-23)
Leo XII (1823-29)
Pius VIII (1829-30)
Gregory XVI (1831-46)
Blessed Pius IX (1846-7
Leo XIII (1878-1903)
St. Pius X (1903-14)

Benedict XV (1914-22)
Pius XI (1922-39)
Pius XII (1939-5
Blessed John XXIII (1958-63)
Paul VI (1963-7
John Paul I (197
John Paul II (1978-2005)
Benedict XVI (2005—)


mmm, boy am i glad to be a part of the family of these men !

[whiteoleander]

id like to share my favorite qoutes ...

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition".
Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*
St. Irenaeus (disciple of Polycarp, disciple of John)
(Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189])

“I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity. . . . That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted. St, Peter and St. Paul, forty-six Popes, some hundreds of thousands of martyrs, have laid down their lives in its communion, having overcome Hell and the world; so that the eyes of God rest on the Roman church with special favor. Though nowadays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going, the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better. We must not separate from God on account of any work of the devil, nor cease to have fellowship with the children of God who are still abiding in the pale of Rome on account of the multitude of the ungodly. There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the bond of unity of the body. For love can do all things, and nothing is difficult to those who are united.�

Martin Luther to Pope Leo X, January 6, 1519

more than a year after the Ninety-Five Theses

quoted in The Facts about Luther, 356


“But look at the men who have those perverted notions about the grace of Jesus Christ which has come down to us, and see how contrary to the mind of God they are. . . . They even abstain from the Eucharist and from the public prayers, because they will not admit that the Eucharist is the self-same body of our Savior Jesus Christ which flesh suffered for our sins, and which the Father of His goodness raised up again.“



St. Ignatius of Antioch (d. AD 106; disciple of Peter and Paul)

Epistle to the Smyrnaeans


i'd like to encourage all the catholics to check the books thatÂ* hasÂ* more than a thousand year history . i am not very strong myself , but i try to strengthen my faith , by eating the foods that my family enjoys.

[HoundedbyHeaven]

Sorry to interrupt you, Brother whiteoleander in Christ, but it seems this is called for.

Before you non-Catholics, anti-Catholics specially, start putting up paranoid posts in this thread, may I reiterate my testimony that I am neither dacs, tempest, tempest2, mannyamador or whiteoleander. We are, I would like to believe, separate and distinct individuals, hopefully.

No, I do not suffer from MPD.

Thank you.

Keep the faith, whiteoleander and mannyamador!

Shalom.

[dacs]

Sorry to interrupt you, Brother whiteoleander in Christ, but it seems this is called for.

Before you non-Catholics, anti-Catholics specially, start putting up paranoid posts in this thread, may I reiterate my testimony that I am neither dacs, tempest, tempest2, mannyamador or whiteoleander. We are, I would like to believe separate and distinct individuals, hopefully.

No, I do not suffer MPDs.

Thank you.

Keep the faith, whiteoleander and mannyamador!

Shalom.

Shalom.



Probably the very reason why you are sometimes mistaken to be me, HoundedbyHeaven - the 'shalom' thing.

I am happy with the fact that there are a number of posters who are keeping the True Faith.Â* God bless you all!

Sorry, guys.Â* I can only post once in a while now.Â* I am currently very busy preparing papers (hopefully) to be presented in some conferences.Â* It has been a long time since I last read any post from this forum.

Omnia ad majorem Dei gloriam.

[mannyamador]

They DID try to supress it to the people and their excuse for hiding the truth was that people might be susceptible to "private interpretations" and rampant heresy.... as if there aren't any private interpretations of Scripture in the RCC...

Check your history. The Bibles that were "suppressed" were wildly inaccurate translations. If the Church did try to suppress the Bible (the "Word of God"), then why did the Church authorize so many vernacular Bibles BEFORE the Protestants started spreading theirs? Why did the Church get a Catholic Bible PRINTED before any of the Protestants got theirs printed?

By the way, while some catholics may make the mistake of claiming they can interpret the scriptures, the Catholic Church clearly teaches that such private interpretation is not authoritative. If you don't know that teaching of the Church then you are attacking alleged doctrines that you don't even understand.

Your accusations hold no water. You really should check your history before you make such (sorry bro, but it's true) ignorant claims.

[MrBiddle]

Check your history. The Bibles that were "suppressed" were wildly inaccurate translations. If the Church did try to suppress the Bible (the "Word of God"), then why did the Church authorize so many vernacular Bibles BEFORE the Protestants started spreading theirs? Why did the Church get a Catholic Bible PRINTED before any of the Protestants got theirs printed?

I have... Not only that, those who refused to bow to the Pope or to the Eucharist were then allowed to be tortured when the Pope somewhere in the 12th century issued the Bull of May for the "unrepentant heretics".

St. Peter (32-67)

If I'm NOT mistaken the epistle of Paul to the Romans was written some time before or on 51 A.D. it would have been an insult to Peter if such an epistle was still called for if Peter was indeed in Rome at that specified time.

The only reason the RCC exists is that Constantine and Helen tried to reconcile the abhorrent ways of paganism to Christianity. Only then did people believe their lies of refuge and the falsehood that has made their hiding place (Is. 28: 15)

History is silent as to the primacy of Rome or the system of Rome being the "one true mystical body". or the church that Christ founded as mentioned in Matt 16: 18 or Eph. 3: 10..... but it says that all those who are believers are one in the hand of God (Ezk. 37: 19 ) because Christ Jesus is the chief cornerstone (Eph. 2: 18 - 22) and no foundation can be laid other than the one that already has been and that foundation in Christ (1 Cor. 3: 11)

I may NOT know particulars but I know about the four great empires

Babylon at the time of Nebuchadnezzar
Medo Persia
Greece under Alexander.

The only thing the Bible has to say about Rome is that it is the fourth tyrannical beast that will devour the whole earth and crush it (Dan 7: 23 ) True enough, it has corrupted the whole of the earth with its abominations (Rev. 17: 15)

And in the RCC's claim to be the One True Mystical Body, they seem to forget that in context of Matt. 16: 18, Peter writes in 1 Pet. 2: 4 - 8 that all of us believers are "living stones" who should come to Him the stone that the builders rejected who has become the Chief Cornerstone and that is referring of course to Christ. A rock that makes men stumble. (1 Cor. 10: 4, Deut. 4: 31, 32)

Besides history, one must also understand the prophetic significance of geopolitical events such as the division of power by Rome and why the RCC seems to be the most unconquerable, unsinkable and a denomination that no one has ever been able to topple down (Rev. 18: 18 )

But many Catholic theologians and scholars strain to reconcile the Traditions of the Roman Church with Scripture. Again, they say "it is written word".... but if as truth, and the Scriptures attest: It is questionable.

[Obese Bo Ricardo]

it has corrupted the whole of the earth with its abominations

A much lighter term could be heterodoxy that is irreconcilable with traditions as taught in Scripture and used in the early churches.

[misfit]

just a suggestion lng...

i'd really like it more if people would stop pasting long quotes, verses, etc...they don't help much and makawala sa interes.

[MrBiddle]

i'd really like it more if people would stop pasting long quotes, verses, etc...they don't help much and makawala sa interes.

They aren't quoted at all. Just followed up by verses. If someone indeed looks up some of those verses, you won't find what I wrote verbatim. Just the idea.

[MrBiddle]

Another thing is while indeed elders and presbysters are called for in any "church" to indoctrinate what is taught in the Scriptures it isn't a Biblical theology for anyone or any clergy to be the "sole interpreter" of the Scriptures. No one knows it but the One who Wrote it (Rev. 19: 11 - 13, 1 Cor. 2:11 )

It is written You do not have a Book that is for your private interpretation

Yes I've checked my history. It was supressed at one point because of the issue of the Magisterium's supreme and sole authority to interpret the Scriptures. That was once an issue, was it not?

But because of the extra and anti-Biblical traditions, the Antichrist didn't have to worry about the good news going out, and because it did come out into the open again, that's when Luther and company started to question the teachings that are "beyond what is written".

So in Fatima, the Antichrist audaciously spoke: Read your Bible everyday. And put it in a visible place.