i would like to share our response to ORLANDO CARVAJAL-a former priest who is now married, i think, he still thinks he is a priest but anyway, i copied and paste this from sunstar forum. i hope the informations here will shed some light to those who need it. PEACE
Re: PROGREDIMUR (TOWARDS A CLERGY-LESS NON-CHURCH)(Score: 1)
by stevegeraldine on Aug 10, 2004 - 08:16 AM
Dear Mr. Carvajal,
My wife brought your article to my attention after becoming very distraught after reading your position on “ a Clergy Less Non-Church.” As I was reading the article, I noted the similarities between your arguments against the Church’s Authority through the Magisterium and those of Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Henry the VIII and a host of others who have left the Catholic Church over the years. It is no wonder, that since Luther, we have now over 270,000 different Protestant Churches.
In the sixteenth century Protestantism did away with the authority of the Church and constituted every man his own judge of the Bible, and what was the consequence? Religion upon religion, church upon church, sprang into existence, and has never stopped springing up new churches to this day. The only difference is your attempt to remain in the Catholic Church and make it into one more Protestant religion.
In the year 1520, the first Protestant came into the world. Before that one there was not a Protestant in the world, not one on the face of the whole earth; and that one, as all history tells us, was Martin Luther, who was a Catholic Priest, who fell away from the Church through pride, and married a nun. He was excommunicated from the Church, cut off, banished, and made a new religion of his own.
Before Martin Luther there was not a Protestant in the world; he was the first to raise the standard of rebellion and revolt against the Church of God. He said to his disciples that they should take the Bible for their guide, and they did so. But they soon quarreled with him, Zwingli, and a number of others, and every one of them started a new religion of his own.
After the disciples of Martin Luther came John Calvin, who in Geneva established the Presbyterian religion, and hence, almost all of those religions go by the name of their founder.
I ask a Protestant, "Why are you a Lutheran, my friend?" "Well, says he, "because I believe in the doctrine of Martin Luther." Not of Christ, but of man, Martin Luther. And what kind of man was he? A man who had broken the solemn oath he had made at the altar of God, at his ordination, ever to lead a pure, single, and virginal life. He broke that solemn oath, and married a Sister Catherine, who had also taken the same oath of chastity and virtue. And this was the first founder of Protestantism in the world. The very name by which they are known tells you they came from Martin Luther.
So. The Presbyterians are sometimes called Calvinists because they come from, or profess to believe in, John Calvin. After them came Henry VIII. He was a Catholic, and defended the Catholic religion; he wrote a book against Martin Luther in defense of the Catholic doctrine. Henry VIII defended the religion, and for doing so was titled by the Pope "Defender of the Faith." It came down with his successors, and Queen Victoria inherits it today. He was married to Catherine of Aragon; but there was at his court a maid of honor to the Queen, named Ann Boleyn, who was a beautiful woman, and captivating in appearance. Henry was determined to have her. But he was a married man. He put in a petition to the Pope to be allowed to marry her; and a foolish petition it was, for the Pope had no power to grant the prayer of it. The Pope and all the bishops of the world cannot go against the will of God. Christ says: "If a man putteth away his wife and marrieth another, he committeth adultery, and he that marrieth her who is put away committeth adultery also."
As the Pope would not grant the prayer of Henry's petition he took Ann Boleyn anyhow, and was excommunicated from the Church. After awhile there was another maid of honor prettier than the first, more beautiful and charming in the eyes of Henry, and he said he must have her, too. He took the third wife, and a fourth, fifth and sixth followed. Now this is the founder of the Anglican Church, the Church of England; and, therefore, it is that it goes by the name of the Church of England.
The Apostles said: "I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Holy Catholic Church"; they never said, in the Anglican Church, or the Lutheran Church, or the Baptist Church, or Born- Again Catholic Church!
What is the meaning of the word Catholic? It comes from the Greek word Catholicus; universal, spread all over the earth, and everywhere the same. Now, first of all, the Anglican Church is not spread all over the earth; it only exists in a few countries, and chiefly only where the English language is spoken. Secondly, they are not the same all over the earth, for there are now four different Anglican churches; the Low Church, the High Church, the Ritualist Church and the Puseyite Church.
Catholicus means more than this, not only spread all over the earth and everywhere the same, but it means, moreover, at all times the same, from Christ up to the present day. Now, then, they have not been in existence from the time of Christ. There never was an Episcopalian Church or an Anglican Church before Henry VIII. The Catholic Church had already existed fifteen hundred years before the Episcopal came into the world.
After Episcopalianism different other churches sprang up. Next came the Methodist, about three hundred plus years ago. It was started by John Wesley, who was at first a member of the Episcopalian Church; subsequently he joined the Moravian Brethren, but not liking them, he made a religion of his own, the Methodist Church.
I must admit that you can leave the Catholic Church, forsake your solemn vows and you have as much right to establish your own religion as that of Luther, Calvin, Wesley, etc. You have no right at all, and neither had Henry VIII, or the rest of them had any right whatsoever.
Christ had established His Church and given His solemn oath that His Church should stand to the end of time: He promised that He had built it upon a rock, and that the gates of hell should never prevail against it; hence, ALL those different denominations of religion are the invention of man; and I ask you can a man save the soul of his fellow man by any institution he can make? Must not religion come from God?
Therefore, each one of us should think over this seriously. You have a soul to be saved, and that soul must be saved or damned; either one or the other, it will dwell with God in heaven or with the devil in hell; therefore, seriously meditate upon it.
We can be sure of our Faith in the Catholic Church, and if our Faith is not true, Christ has deceived us.
Today there are so many Protestant churches because there is so much different interpretation of the Bible; there is so much different interpretation of the Bible because there is so much wrong interpretation of the Bible. And there is so much wrong interpretation because the system of interpreting it is radically wrong. You cannot have one fold and one shepherd, one faith and one baptism by letting every man and every woman distort and pervert the Scriptures to suit their own pet theories.
In our day, there is no whim, fad or fancy that someone does not claim to prove from the Bible. Almost any man or woman is conceited enough to claim the role of a competent interpreter of the word of God. These men or women want it thoroughly understood that for 1500 to 1900 years, the Christian world was in inky darkness. Your arguments against the Catholic Church are no different, but you ask us to believe that with your interpretations of the Bible and misquotations from Vatican II, light has come into the world.
Take ten children. Give them all the same simple math problem Imagine that each give you a different answer. Of those ten answers, you know that at least nine are wrong. Perhaps also the tenth. Here are 400 sects (Baptist, Lutherans, Methodist, Anglicans, etc.) Ask them all to solve the problem, “what does the Bible teach?” Each gives you a different answer. Meanwhile, two and two are always four. There are a thousand wrong answers to every problem, but only one correct reply.
How can you be sure the Catholic Church has the One True and Correct answer? Because our Lord and Savior told Peter: And I say also unto Thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Eternity is a forever, do I want to put my trust in a man and his interpretation of the Bible and his wisdom, or so I want to put my salvation into the guidance of the Catholic Church that was established by Jesus Christ when he gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter? Is it logical than an all-knowing God would leave every human being’s salvation that had cost him so much, to any man’s own interpretation of the Bible? Would he have kept the truth from us until Mr. Cavajal came on to this website to proclaim his vision of the New World and his vision for the Catholic Church? Or would Jesus establish one Church with one correct interpretation of the Bible and instructions so that all may be saved?
I challenge you and those who will read this letter: Read the Bible and believe as you like; if you like Martin Luther’s theory, follow it; if you prefer John Calvin’s Christianity, embrace it. If you think that Mr. Carvajal has discovered” the truth, and has succeeded in doing what Christ must have failed to do, then take him as your guide. If no one of their theories suits you, make up on yourself.
All these other religions claim to prove their version of Christianity from the Bible; all these are willing to swear that they are the only ones who are right and that everyone else is wrong. Christ’s Church for 1900 years was a complete failure, but fortunately they have finally come to set it aright. Meanwhile the Bible warns us:
There shall come a time when men will not endure sound doctrine, but as with itching ears, will run after their own desires.
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they tat are unlearned and unstable wrest as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Peter 3, 16).
For whosoever preaches any other but the accepted Christian faith of past centuries, by that very fact proves himself to be a false teacher, a false prophet, who as Christ says, “Comes in the garb of a shepherd, but inwardly is a ravening wolf.” The true faith must be and necessarily has been believed, as St. Augustine puts it: “Semper et ubique”, i.e. “Always and all over” – by at least the vast majority of Christians. Of that accepted Christian faith, therefore, we can say what St. Paul did of his own teachings: “Though an angel from heaven preach to you a different doctrine, let him be accursed.”
Let us suppose now a man in Mandaue City who wants to go to Lapu Lapu, but takes a jeepney for Cebu; the drivers asks for his pesos and where he is going, and the passenger says, “ I am going to Lapu Lapu.” The drivers says "You are in the wrong jeepney; this jeepney is for Cebu, but you are going to Lapu Lapu." "Well, what of that?" Says the passenger. "I mean well." "Your meaning will not go well with you in the end," says the driver, "for you will come out at Cebu instead of Lapu Lapu."
You say you mean well, my dear friend; your meaning will not take you to heaven; you must do well also. "He that doeth the will of My Father," says Jesus, "he alone shall be saved." There are millions in hell who meant well.
Now let us address some of the recommendations in your article. In an effort to not make this response any longer than necessary, let us examine first:
Priestly Celibacy:
The Roman Catholic Church demands celibacy--no voluntary sexual pleasure, hence, no marriage--as a prerequisite to the order of presbyter. The primary basis for the requirement of celibacy is clearly the lifestyle example of Jesus himself. The Church notes that the practice is sanctioned by the New Testament.
Matthew 19:12
Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.
1 Corinthians 7:6-7
This I say by way of concession, however, not as a command. Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am (single? widowed?), but each has a particular gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.
1 Corinthians 7:25-26
Now in regard to virgins, I have no commandment from the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. So this is what I think best because of the present distress: that it is a good thing for a person to remain as he is.
1 Corinthians 7:32-34
I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
The law of celibacy has no doctrinal bearing in the Catholic Church--it is a mere disciplinary law. Even today, there are married Catholic priests in the United States. Each is a former Episcopalian priest who joined the Catholic Church. There are Uniate Churches, churches in union with Rome, e.g., the Greek Byzantine Church, who have a married clergy.
Your argument against priestly celibacy seems to only be an, “economic issue of the Church’s physical survival.” This is preposterous, to think that the Creator of Heaven and Earth would not sustain HIS church if they had married clerics? Our Lord promised us that the gates of hell would not prevail against HIS church, do you think that the economics of a married priesthood would prevail in destroying His Church?
Jesus and the Church in their wisdom mandates priestly celibacy because they know better than you or I or Luther, or Henry VIII, what is most beneficial to the Church.
From a practical matter, think of the immense pressure on a married priest with a wife and child(ren). His wife is deathly ill and his child is an infant, it is a Sunday as he prepares for Mass, he has to make a decision, should I celebrate mass or rush my wife to the hospital? Or perhaps his wife has fixed a nice meal, and he gets a call to rush to the hospital - a parishioner needs Last Rites, of course he will rush to the hospital, but over years of putting the parish before his family, think of the enormous pressure and stress to all involved (Parishioners, wife, children). There are limited hours in a day, each one of us must make choices, as to what is most important; with a celibate priesthood they do not have to make the decision, of Church or family.
This is a calling from God, and it is not easy for them, that as why as laity, we must pray that God will give us good and faithful priest, tell them we appreciate them, have them over for meals. But not for a minute should we pretend that optional celibacy is an economic matter to make the Church’s “bottom-line” more fiscally acceptable. We should instead thank God for His and the Church’s wisdom of a celibate priesthood.
Elected Priesthood
You offer a recommendation that the Christian Community should “elect” their clergy based on exemplary Christian lives. This is all well and good, however, as we can see from current events, that men are sinners, all men are capable of any sin, except they pray for protection from Christ and Mary. What happens when Mr. Reyes is elected priest, and he preaches a sermon that offends half of the Church? Will there be an election to remove him as priest, will their be a trial of peers? Look at the Anglican Church today, they have split over the ordination of an actively gay Bishop whose lover resides in the Bishop’s own home. Voting by the Church left it split into two camps, one in favor of the gay lifestyle and one against it.
In your “New World View” will these elected priests hear confession? Will they baptize? Will they anoint the sick? And if they will, will their “power” or authority now come from the community? If so, I would not want a community elected priest to be responsible for giving me absolution after a confession or Last Rites if his authority to forgive or retain sins comes from man and not God. JOHN 20:23 "Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose so ever sins ye retain, they are retained."
I think it is much better to leave this burden of priestly ordination to God, the Bishops and the Holy Father, than to put such faith in people with more to gain politically or economically from electing their favorite Christian to be a priest.
Civilian Priesthood
You go on to recommend they hold jobs within their community. You state that this would allow them to “experience the community’s life challenge”, they would be more relevant and effective as leaders and teachers.” Take this logic to it’s natural conclusion, to be an effective witness to drug dealers, prostitutes, and murders, the priestly life and/or training should include drug use, promiscuity, and taking an innocent life or two?
Perhaps you say that is ridiculous, one does not need to experience those things to be an effective witness and priest. Very well, but how about finding a priest that can: pray the daily masses, hear confessions, show up to work on time as a good employee and work 8-10 hours, spend time with his family and take care of the needs of the Church and possibly get enough sleep to keep up this schedule for more than 48 hours. Could you give 100% to all those things?
Thank you for taking the time to read this and whether you agree or disagree with the Catholic Church’s and Christ teachings on this matters, I would ask you to pray to the Holy Spirit to lead us in all truth and to be a light unto our path, so that we may always and in everything do His Holy Will.
In Christ,
Steve and Geraldine
By the way he never responded after this post. Ambot asa na kaha ron.
MARRIED PRIESTS-please be patient and read
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