RELIGION

[dacs]

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Ah resistance to change..... could please post such an article or a book or anything from the internet that says that its the anticatholic who started the war?

Bro, don't be that thick. The guy obviously mean things that happen in this forum. Flame war, get it? Why should he refer to an article or book? Have you read the posts?

maybe they are questioning it maybe because they see it that there's lot of loopholes and mistakes that catholics practiced right? try checking pud pre ngano kaha ni sila nibaliktad sa catholicism!

Do you think it is possible that they were wrong? Kadtong 'nibaliktad sa catholicism' ba.

is like asking the same question.. why question the government and its practices? and giving such mean-spirited comments to those people who was just asking for the truth and wants to find the truth? WHY? it all boils down to your own thinking... why did i think like that? and why am i questioning such things? WHY WHY WHY?.... not a song

There is asking and there is bashing. Why? Why? Oh why can't you see that? This is definitely not a song.

[karlitobagatsing]

peace bro! :mrgreen:

isnt it enough that you live a life in peace and love?

in this very complexed world where religion has now become complicated as well. always remember... K.I.S.S.

[dacs]

Frankly, I would rather be spiritual than religious.

Pardon me, bro, but you need to qualify what you mean about being 'spiritual'. Obviously, I have qualified how it is to be religious in my personal understanding. Enlighten our minds, please.

But, then, religion is our personal way of relating with our Supreme Being. I really don't give a damn whether you rant it out as holier-than-thou sentiment or I sing and dance with it.

If you recognize and believe of a Supreme Being, would you care to know how that Supreme Being wish to be treated? Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Incarnate Son of God. For approximately three years, He proclaimed the Kingdom of God and called for the conversion of the hearts. He certainly provided them with ways to worship the Father (including - but not limited to - how to pray to Him). He surely commanded the apostles to make disciples of all nations. I, for my part, am doing my part as a confirmed Christian.

What sends my goat on amok with this thread is how shameless can many people be --- especially the initiator of this thread --- on the insecurities of their perceived ex-cathedra correctness and self-importance. This is arrogance the heighest order.

Forgive me, bro, but wouldn't your pronouncement above be interpreted as a 'holier-than-thou sentiment'?

If we pray to a God, why should we romp with it. As the Presbyterians used to say --- "why can't we just ponder it in our hearts?"

The Presbyterians are certainly Marian (Luke 2:51) in this one! Man is both a personal and a social being. Given these things, he certainly could pray in his own personal manner. He could also, in other times, participate in the prayers of all faithful in the church. He can even do both in one event - like the Holy Mass.

[dacs]

RELEGION IS FLAWED BECAUSE MAN ITSELF IS FLAWED!

If man made a religion, it certainly would have some degree of error. Yet, if God who became man for the salvation of the world initiate such religion, how can it be flawed? He promised to protect it and lead it to all truth (John 16:12-15).

[tolstoi]

calling GAREB!...

[tolstoi]

God in the image of Jesus Christ was not here to initiate an INSTITUTION!

[dacs]

peace bro! :mrgreen:

isnt it enough that you live a life in peace and love?

Shalom.

What kind of peace will that be? The peace that the world can give or the peace that Christ can give?

I have read a number of historical testimonies in books authored by seculars, Catholics and non-Catholics. When the discussion is on the Christian persecution during the time of Diocletian until perhaps before Constantine (and some intermitent moments in between), a number of testimonies are provided that says many Christians went through the ordeal 'at peace with themselves and their God'. They were not afraid - as normal men should be in the face of hungry lions, leopards and others. In the standard of the world (even today), they were fools.

Is this the kind of peace that you desire?

in this very complexed world where religion has now become complicated as well. always remember... K.I.S.S.

Complicated in what sense? Catholicism has remained the same throughout the ages. Her understanding of some doctrines and deposits of faith may have develop, but she remains the same. I have to concede, though, that living a truly Christian life may become 'complicated' in this world we live in.

[HoundedbyHeaven]

God in the image of Jesus Christ was not here to initiate an INSTITUTION!

You either have not read Matthew 16:18 from the Bible, had no passage like this in your Bible, ignored this passage, interpret this passage differently or reject this passage as a valid part of the Bible:

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Thank you.

[diem]

to err is human, to forgive divine...!

Please let us remain calm as we contemplate this profound issue. I find the knowledge shared in this thread quite enlightening..

[silent-kill]

what is true now may not be true tomorrow.

You mean that the truth of the Bible being the Word of God may be falsehood tomorrow? Prove please.

old and new testament. ding!. ex. in the old testament men are required to sacrifice a lamp to praise/talk to god. in the new testament this is no longer true...

QUESTION : Why pray to saints? Is it not better to pray to God direct?

Not always. The same answer applies here as in the case of prayers to the Virgin Mary, who after all is the greatest of all saints. God may wish to give certain favors through the intercession of some given saints. In such a case, it is better to seek the intercession of that saint as God wishes. I can decide to give you a gift myself, or to do so through a friend. In the latter case, you do me greater honor by accepting it from my friend than by refusing my way of giving it to you, and insolently demanding it directly from myself in person.

i am sorry but this is against your own rules. God said every man is equal in his eyes. are you saying that God is giving certain favors to saints?, doesnt it make man even farther to god?. so does saints serves as "fixers" so you get faster replies to god?. does god listen lesser to ordinary human than saints?.

ADDENDUM : 1 Timothy 2:5 says that there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

Correct, and Catholics also believe that.

believing is not the same as doing, so why pray to saints?. what power do they have when they are just the same as everyone else as humans.

QUESTION : Then why do Catholics pray to the Virgin Mary and other saints to make intercession for them?

Firstly, because doing so is not opposed to the passage you quote. Even though we pray to our Lady and the saints, it is in the Name of Jesus that we ask them to intercede for us, and it is that they may obtain for us a greater share in the fruits of His mediation with God on our behalf.

Secondly, not only is prayer to our Lady and the saints not opposed to the passage you quote, it is an application of it. For, according to the New Testament, Jesus makes all who belong to Him members of Himself. He is the Head, and we are the members. And the members are not only for Him, but they are for each other, and can help each other. For example, my eye is for me, and my hand is for me. But my hand can protect my eye if someone throws a brick at me. But always the power and the life in my eye or in my hand is my power and my life. So, too, I, a poor little member of Christ can appeal to much nobler members of Christ in the persons of Mary and the saints when the devil starts throwing bricks at me. But any power and life in our Lady and the saints is the power and life of Christ and is derived from Him. So I am appealing to Him after all – I, in Christ, appeal to Christ in other members whom He has deigned to associate more closely with Himself; and any hope I have in their intercession is in the name of Christ and through His one great mediation with God. Your difficulties are due to the very superficial view you have of our Christian religion, and a strange tendency to isolate members of the great family of the children of God one from another. From time immemorial, Christians have said, “I believe in the Communion of Saints.” That means the “common union” of all in Christ, and implies their communication one with another. Catholics understand this, and criticism from others is merely because they have no real understanding of the Christian religion.

doesnt this contradict "1 Timothy 2:5 says that there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus." ?

QUESTION : Do not graven images, symbols, relics, and other material things play a large part in the worship of the Roman Catholic Church?

No. They play their part within due limits and in a very secondary way only. Every Catholic knows that such external helps to religion have value only insofar as they reflect or stimulate the interior spirit of worship. Without that, they would be but the dead body of religion deprived of its soul.

so what is their part? in your worship?

QUESTION : But I have seen Catholics kissing the feet of the statue of the Child Jesus. Isn’t that idolatry?

If you kiss the photograph of your mother, are you giving honor to a piece of paper? Or is it a tribute of love and respect to your mother? Catholics kiss the image of the Child Jesus not because it is an idol or a piece of plaster, but because it stands for Child Jesus – remembering Him as the God Incarnate.

how do you know that this is the face of jesus or mary?. why do you need a representation when you did not see him?

QUESTION : Some Catholics wipe their hankies on some parts of the statue hoping to be cured from sickness or ill-fortune. Isn’t that idolatry?

You would be correct if those Catholics expect to be cured by the statue – but they don’t. Instead, they hope to be cured through the statue. God, in his Infinite Mercy, could make use of the statue as an instrument of healing. Remember the hemorrhaging woman (Matthew 9:20-22, Mark 5:25-34, Luke 8:43-4? She believed that, if only she could touch the cloak, she would be cured. She did touch the cloak of Christ and was immediately healed. It is quite evident in the Holy Scriptures that Christ sometimes used material things to bring about healing to a person. If God would allow such things to happen then, would you not allow Him to do it again to us today?[/color]

are you saying that statues serve as a transmitter or antena to gods power? still i do not understand why you need the statue inorder to get healed.

"Jesus turned and saw her. "Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was healed from that moment."
the woman was healed by her own faith. jesus did not do anything to heal her. and the situation was different cause jesus was actually wearing the cloak. is jesus holding the statue?. has he blessed the statue? has he blessed the hand who made the statue?.

please read this

All who make idols are nothing,
and the things they treasure are worthless.
Those who would speak up for them are blind;
they are ignorant, to their own shame.

10 Who shapes a god and casts an idol,
which can profit him nothing?

11 He and his kind will be put to shame;
craftsmen are nothing but men.
Let them all come together and take their stand;
they will be brought down to terror and infamy.

12 The blacksmith takes a tool
and works with it in the coals;
he shapes an idol with hammers,
he forges it with the might of his arm.
He gets hungry and loses his strength;
he drinks no water and grows faint.

13 The carpenter measures with a line
and makes an outline with a marker;
he roughs it out with chisels
and marks it with compasses.
He shapes it in the form of man,
of man in all his glory,
that it may dwell in a shrine.

14 He cut down cedars,
or perhaps took a cypress or oak.
He let it grow among the trees of the forest,
or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow.

15 It is man's fuel for burning;
some of it he takes and warms himself,
he kindles a fire and bakes bread.
But he also fashions a god and worships it;
he makes an idol and bows down to it.

16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire;
over it he prepares his meal,
he roasts his meat and eats his fill.
He also warms himself and says,
"Ah! I am warm; I see the fire."

17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol;
he bows down to it and worships.
He prays to it and says,
"Save me; you are my god."

18 They know nothing, they understand nothing;
their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see,
and their minds closed so they cannot understand.

19 No one stops to think,
no one has the knowledge or understanding to say,
"Half of it I used for fuel;
I even baked bread over its coals,
I roasted meat and I ate.
Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left?
Shall I bow down to a block of wood?"

20 He feeds on ashes, a deluded heart misleads him;
he cannot save himself, or say,
"Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?"

21 "Remember these things, O Jacob,
for you are my servant, O Israel.
I have made you, you are my servant;
O Israel, I will not forget you.

22 I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,
your sins like the morning mist.
Return to me,
for I have redeemed you."

23 Sing for joy, O heavens, for the LORD has done this;
shout aloud, O earth beneath.
Burst into song, you mountains,
you forests and all your trees,
for the LORD has redeemed Jacob,
he displays his glory in Israel.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven

[color=darkblue]CALL NO MAN 'FATHER'

This command of Jesus, found in Mt. 23: 9-10, is not about vocabulary. If it were, the New Testament writers wouldn't have repeatedly used the word 'Father' to refer to human beings. Instead, Jesus is warning us against putting our complete faith and trust in a human being rather than God. We must never submit our innermost being to anyone other than God himself. No prophet, no guru, no teacher should garner our total trust, only God. If simply using the word, 'Father,' to refer to a human being were wrong, we would not find the word used that way throughout the scripture. But of course we do – again and again:

Lk. 16: 24 – Jesus himself refers to "Father Abraham" in the parable of Lazarus the beggar. Would he have failed to follow his own command?

1 Cor. 4: 14-15 – "…I became your father in Christ through the gospel..." St. Paul refers to himself as a spiritual father. In doing so, he defines the way in which Catholics use the term, "father," in referring to a priest – as a "father in Christ through the gospel."

Acts 7: 1-2 – St. Stephen, the first martyr, says to the high priest and the elders and scribes: "'My brothers and fathers, listen. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham…'"

Rom. 4: 17-18 – St. Paul refers to Abraham as "... the father of us all..." and "the father of many nations."

1 Thess. 2: 11 – "...we treated each one of you as a father treats his children..." Again, St. Paul describes himself as a spiritual father to the faithful.

1 Jn. 2: 13-14 – "I write to you, fathers..." St. John also appears to disobey Jesus' directive – an impossibility, of course. So we see that the vocabulary-based interpretation of Jesus' words cannot be correct.

(All of the above quotations in darkblue are from the booklet entitled Catholic Doctrine in Scripture by Greg Oatis.)

jesus called abraham "father" because his human body is an ansestor of abraham. then why call the pope as holy father?.