MERGED: Vigilantism and related issues

[buloi123]

---

Kaklaro ana oi! Nganu man jud maglalis man mo! Nganu gud tawon nga di mo mo-pabor sa pagpatay aning mga criminal! Tan-awon nato kung kamo ang ma-agrabyado aning mga criminala, ug di ba mo mo pabor aning vigilantism! Sige lang mo yaw-yaw da, huna-hunaa ninyo kung unsay sakit nga gi hatag aning mga criminala sa mga inosenteng sibilyan! Maayo unta kung ma priso di na moutro.. Unya makagawas ra man gihapon then mobalik gihapon sa ilang binuhatan... Unsa man, mag ihap na sad ta ug mga tao nga mabiktima aning mga hinampak nga dagku?!? Sus... intawon oi!!!!

[richard_pcTECH]

mayo na kay mangasalbahis man pud ila patyon...
asa labi grabi kun kita ma patay sa tulisan...

[tingkagol]

Everybody's a victim nowadays. No wonder why people WANT this.

[SPRINGFIELD_XD_40]

They are now prowling DRUG PUSHERS so it is nice to hear and see it not only the thiefs are the targets .

http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/ceb...ree.times.html

[bfginus]

bfginus wrote:
speculation on our part? or mere assumption on your part that it's mere speculation on our part? as can be gleaned from your statements quoted above, i'm afraid all you could offer are irrelevant contrary views which themselves are but products of your own speculations and assumptions.

and who says that vigilantes are real the answer to the criminality problem in davao? vigilante killings reduced the number of criminal elements in that city, that was the assertion. a refutation of fact by misrepresentation of a statement. what a mess.

vern answered:
As I have already said, if it is not speculation, where are your numbers? your facts? That is all that I ask for. Show me something that says ... vigilante killings are effective. If all you are saying is 10 - 1 = 9 ... I do not contest that ... unfortunately, that doesn't mean effectiveness.

"I don't mind us being called the murder capital of the Philippines as long as those being killed are the bad guys".
“I would rather see criminals dead than innocent victims die, being killed senselessly”. “
Davao City is the most dangerous city in the Philippines for criminals. Very, very dangerous."

These are the words of Davao City Mayor Rodrigo Duterte. But these words are quoted not because they are about him, but because his words are about vigilante “justice”. Duterte is vigilante executions and vice versa, if you know what I mean.

reports on vigilante killings in davao during Duterte’s incumbency:
Amnesty International, other human rights groups, and SunStar , a local daily, reported that , up from about 60 in 2002, 109 people were executed in Davao in 2003, at least 90 of them were involved in drug or robbery cases.

Source: Dow Jones Reuters, 27 May 2002
Gun-wielding politicians told to stay away from Davao City, or engage mayor in gunfight.
By Hernani P. de Leon. _Business World Publishing Corporation.
...........Meanwhile, Mr. Duterte said many personalities he had identified last year as involved in illegal drugs have already died. "Some were killed the day after I read the names on television and there's one who accidentally killed himself." He said the campaign against illegal drugs would now be directed at big-time local distributors and suppliers from other regions that come here regularly.
In the past, the DDS was linked to Mr. Duterte who seems to favor a heavy-handed law enforcement style for this city. DDS is notorious for the summary executions of drug dealers and thieves in this city during the last five years. .........

EFFECTS OF VIGILANTE KILLINGS IN DAVAO:

Source: Dow Jones Reuters, 29 October 2001
Davao mayor pledges improved business climate as killings continue.
Business World Publishing Corporation.

DAVAO CITY - The city government expects business to improve next year after it has cleaned the city of drugs and crime.
"With a better peace and order situation next year, we would be enjoying improved economic condition," mayor Rodrigo Duterte told local media over the weekend.....
Peace and order has been an important variable in Mindanao's economic development. Local businessmen noted that the investment climate in this city improved significantly when the security situation stabilized during Mr. Duterte's term in the mid-'90s. Ironically, however, a shadowy group of vigilantes referred to as the Davao Death Squad (DDS) started killing drug dealers and other criminals during those years.
Since assuming the city's top post in July, Mr. Duterte has warned drug dealers and thieves in the city to leave by the end of December or "face the consequence." Summary executions intensified almost immediately after Mr. Duterte issued the warnings. Last week, he advanced the deadline he gave the criminals to the end of November even as he denied any involvement with the DDS.
Two Sundays ago, Mr. Duterte disclosed on television the names of 500 individuals who could "help him" in his administration's anti-drug campaign. The names were culled from records of the regional anti-narcotics unit. Ironically, it includes more than 20 police officers. Hours after Mr. Duterte's disclosure, some of those in the list were killed, again reportedly by the DDS.
The drop in criminality has drawn investors in the city led by SM Prime Holdings, Inc. which would provide about 5,000 new jobs.

Source: Dow Jones Reuters, 5 December 2001

DAVAO CITY - Vigilante-style execution, introduced here by the Davao Death Squad (DDS) in the mid-'80s, is being replicated in nearby urban centers.
Regional police authorities confirmed that at least four assassinations in Digos City, Davao del Sur, during the last two weeks could be the work of a vigilante death squad.
The DDS started killing criminals - with drug pushers on top of the list - in this city in the mid-'80s during the third and last term of mayor Rodrigo Duterte.
In the May elections, Mr. Duterte got the city's top post back. Among his first statements was to warn criminals to leave the city before the end of the year or "face the consequence." Soon enough, a new wave of vigilante killings began. It is estimated that in one month, as many as 15 victims fell to the DDS' bullets.
Shopowners said the number of common crimes, such as burglary and snatching, has been reduced. Drug use has declined significantly, school authorities said. Crime statistics fell by as much as 50%, local police reported.

Source: Dow Jones Reuters, 25 Januray 2002
WEEKENDER - Natural, man-made calamities changing island's prospects.
By Carmelito Q. Francisco. Business World Publishing Corporation.
DAVAO CITY -
......In a nutshell, members of the business sector still believe the region will eventually have a better performance despite current problems.
Joji Ilagan-Bian, Mindanao Business Council (MBC) chairperson, said recent events would not have much effect on the possible entry of business and the performance of agriculture. This is because business and government leaders feel Davao City mayor Rodrigo Duterte, head of the Regional Peace and Order Council (RPOC), is known to have firm resolve in solving criminality.
A few weeks after he assumed the mayorship last July 1, Mr. Duterte vowed to eradicate illegal drug activities in the city by November. The Davao Death Squad (DDS), a shadowy vigilante group, soon took over and executed dozens of suspected drug dealers whose names were in the police' anti-narcotics unit's list.
The mayor has earned praises not just from the private sector, but also from other government officials, for his heavy-handed treatment of suspected criminals. Lawyer Jesus Ayala, chairman of the regional development council (RDC), said investors appreciate Mr. Duterte's way of dealing with the criminals. Thus, prospects are good this year provided peace and order remains stable in the region.

Source: Dow Jones Reuters, 14 January 2002
Let's talk or kill each other, Duterte tells kidnappers.
By Hernani P. de Leon. Business World Publishing Corporation.
DAVAO CITY - War has been declared against kidnappers in Southern Mindanao.
In his Sunday morning television program, Davao City mayor Rodrigo Duterte read out the names of suspected kidnappers living in this city and in nearby provinces, including those in areas controlled by Moro rebel groups.
After reading the names, Mr. Duterte addressed the suspects, saying "I'm asking you to come out and choose between two options; let's talk or let's kill each other."
xxx
the public observed that criminals would not dare operate in this city after a campaign against illegal drugs succeeded in driving drug lords and pushers out of the city. Dozens of drug suspects were executed, vigilante-style, by a group known as the Davao Death Squad (DDS), which has been associated with Mr. Duterte

Washington Post Foreign Service
By Alan Sipress

November 27, 2003

In the first nine months of this year there were 94 such killings, according to figures compiled by a coalition of human rights, legal and children's advocacy groups. Since 1999 there have been more than 200 and only one prosecution.
During his tenure, government officials said, the local crime rate has fallen, making Davao one of the safest major cities in the Philippines and winning it national plaudits. Duterte has been tapped by President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo as her special adviser on peace and order.
The vigilante killings are quietly cheered by local businessmen. "The criminals are being eliminated one by one," said Romeo J. Serra, president of the Davao City Chamber of Commerce and Industry.
Edmundo Acayers have made this coastal city of 1.1 million a safer vacation destination. "I call it the process of expurgation. Whoever is doing it, I say very good and thank you," he said.

REUTERS , DAVAO, PHILIPPINES
Friday, Feb 20, 2004,Page 9
Davao crime statistics showing the city has one of the lowest crime rates in the nation suggest the style of (Mayor Rodrrigo Duterte in dealing crimes) may be effective…

”Vigilante killings bring unexpected benefit to Davao”
Posted 05:12pm (Mla time) Aug 19, 2004
By Joel B. Escovilla, Anthony Allada
Inquirer News Service

INQ7 . DAVAO CITY, Davao del Sur, Philippines -- The summary killings in Davao have had positive impact on tourism, Philippine Tourism Authority general manager Robert Dean Barbers said here Thursday.

Barbers said Mayor Rodrigo Duterte was doing a good job of instilling discipline among Davaoeños and this has impacted the way tourists view the city.
To prove his point, he cited an informal survey the PTA office in Beijing has conducted.
He said, because of its low crime rate as a result of continuing DDS operations, Davao City was among the cities the Chinese expressed interest in visiting.
During a speech before the 9th Philippine Floriculture Congress here, Barbers said he thought the activities of the so-called DDS was “great.”

Datelined davao city, phil Zabriskie reported for the TIME, thus -
The Punisher: Hard-riding, tough-talking Mayor Rodrigo Duterte keeps the peace in what was once the Philippines' most lawless city. But his brand of order comes at a price.
The island of Mindanao remains troubled. A Muslim separatist rebellion has raged there for decades. Al-Qaeda members have roamed the island. Foreign businessmen and missionaries must constantly be on guard there against kidnappers. But Davao, a sprawling port city on the southern coast, has emerged as the exception-an oasis of peace in the middle of the Philippines' lush center of chaos.
Residents have a simple explanation: the mayor. First elected in 1987, Duterte was returned to office twice until term limits made him to move to Manila as a Congressman. Last year he returned, running for the Davao mayoralty on his eternal platform: to bring peace and order the Duterte way. The city's 1.3 million residents swept him back into office, and no wonder. On his watch, Davao's per capita crime rate has sunk to the nation's lowest. The local tourism board calls it "the most peaceful city in Southeast Asia." People once fled the place in fear; now they flee other trouble spots in the Philippines-for Davao.

Davao City (31 July) -- Vigilante killings in Davao City has not in anyway affected the city's business community but has made business even better, Sofronio Jucutan, executive vice president of the Davao City Chamber of Commerce and Industry (DCCCI) said.

Guesting in yesterday's I-Speak, Jucutan said "eliminating the garbage of society is better for the business community." He was referring to alleged drug pushers gunned down by so-called Davao Death Squad (DDS).

INQ7 . DAVAO CITY, Davao del Sur, Philippines – Davao vigilante killings ‘good for city,’ says Chinoy trader

A ranking official of the Chinese-Filipino business community here said the summary executions of suspected criminals have created a good atmosphere for the business sector in the city.
“These killings are good for the city,” said Uy Ching Siong, Federation of Filipino Chinese Chamber of Commerce regional director for Southern Mindanao.
But he was quick to add that they were not encouraging the extrajudicial killings.
Uy said some businessmen who had left the city due to security concerns have come back because criminality has been reduced.
Supt. Conrado Laza, Davao City Police Office director, said the crime rate in the city has been reduced by 15 percent from June to July. (posted Aug 07, 2004 By Anthony Allada)

[bfginus]

bfginus wrote:
i did. just the same it proved me right. i find your comparison of two american cities useless because it neither proves nor disproves the realities of davao city. it's immaterial and irrelevant. naghisgot ta kung ang vigilante killings nakapaminus ba sa gidaghanon sa kriminal sa davao, ngano gud tawn niabot kag amerika nga wa man ta naghisgot og unsa'y tinuod didto?

vern answered:
You didn't understand the point I was making. Please do not cut snippets of my argument to prove your own. I asked "Are you attributing the relatively low crime in Davao to vigilante killings? ... not to something the government is doing right for a change?". I was comparing two like cities with different results from the government. You still haven't
answered the question.

Stop making excuses. your “snippets” of arguments suffered from tangential infirmities I had to rebut them. I took every point in your comments in its own context, and gave my answers thereto point by point for clarity. Snippets or not, your comments would get the same response from me nontheless.

Your question calls for a redundant answer. the answer you wanted to get was clear from my previous post. read it carefully. You asked “when has crime ever been an effective way to combat crime? I answered by adopting a poster’s comment: “now, in davao”. Pero nangutana pa gyud ka, "Are you attributing the relatively low crime in Davao to vigilante killings? ... not to something the government is doing right for a change?". Unsa man diay, ka klaro ana. From my answer arose the sub-issue: whether or not vigilante killings in davao really help fight crimes in that place. Mao na ang klarohon kung unsa ni ka tinuod, kung tinuod ba gyud ni. And if you hold a contrary view, then present your facts involving the pertinent davao vigilante issue. Don’t give us the irrelevant comparison of two American cities. The American “facts” you presented had no probative bearing on davao factual issues.

vern wrote:
Like I said previously, I was not comparing American cities to Filipino cities. That would be comparing apples to oranges. I was making a point that two similar cities can have two totally different rates of crime that is affected by very many different factors and that vigilante killings does not equal low crime.

So of what use then is your comparison of two American cities to the davao discussion? Let me just repeat what I said earlier -

bfginus wrote:
just the same it proved me right. i find your comparison of two american cities useless because it neither proves nor disproves the realities of davao city. it's immaterial and irrelevant. naghisgot ta kung ang vigilante killings nakapaminus ba sa gidaghanon sa kriminal sa davao, ngano gud tawn niabot kag amerika nga wa man ta naghisgot og unsa'y tinuod didto?

vern wrote:
Let's work with FACTS ... not SPECULATION. Where are your numbers?
bfginus answered:
sure. i can give you a relevant profile of DAVAO's peace and order condition based on news reports and other authoritative sources, if you can give yours. i'm pretty sure you're going to dispute the facts cited by the sources just to support your stand. fine with me. just don't give us the examples of minneapolis and los angeles where vigilante killings don't work. they're off-tangent. the crux of the matter here is the DAVAO condition.
vern replied:
I have nothing to prove. I am merely said you have not given me numbers that prove that these vigilantes are the source of Davao's low crime rate? Give me a study. News reports and random people being interviewed is not a study.

You have nothing to prove if you have not taken a position on the issue. But wait. You’ve taken a contrary position. Therefore, you have to prove it. Sorry, but i'm just as demanding as you are. Give me a study that davao’s low crime rate is attributed to other factors you have in mind than the vigilante executions of criminals.

bfginus wrote:
you're confused with your own metaphor. you're talking of ants. ants, in no uncertain terms. so i was talking of wiping out these ants you mentioned. are you now in doubt if the soldiers of the ant colony are ants?

these tiny creatures represent the criminals in your example. criminals, in no uncertain terms. so why are you now contradicting your own example by questioning the certainty that those to be wiped out are ants - or criminals?

vern answered:
No, I believe you have confused yourself with it. You have put meaning where it doesn't belong. The ants stood for people, people which may or may not be guilty of anything.

Oh, really? Let’s check it out who’s confused.

I asked:
is the reduction in the number of criminals not any good to you?

You gave an evasive and irresponsive answer:
Take out the soldiers of an ant colony ... and you still have millions left, without even confirmation if they indeed are guilty of any crime.

I was talking of reduction of criminals - not presumed criminals. You answered with reduction or taking out of soldiers of ant colony - not presumed soldiers of ant colony. the identities of the subjects here are confirmed, not to be ascertained or confirmed yet. the issue here is the reduction in the number of confirmed criminals after some or all of them are eliminated. if you want to dispute the assertion, you should tender an argument that the killings of some or all of the confirmed criminals do not reduce their number. don't put the people in general (which include the innocent, and the presumed criminals) in the equation.

consistency and correspondence of the metaphorical to the literal is the mark of a proper metaphor. To be consistent with proper metaphorical use, your statement has to be interpreted to mean “kill the criminals in (area/place), and you still have millions (of criminals) left.
The trouble is, you mixed, nay mangled, your metaphor by adding the words, “without even confirmation if they indeed are guilty of any crime”, which in the first place, had no place in your metaphor and which made it rather awkward.

worse, with your admission that “ants” referred to “people”, you had betrayed your own logical blunder. I made a particular assertion (using a particular term “criminals”). You countered with a general refutation ( using the general term “people”) that did not in any way render the particular assertion invalid. sa binisaya pa, niingon ko nga "kon i-salvage ang mga drug pushers, mo-minus ang kriminal". dayon ikaw sad mosupak pag-ingon nga "bisan i-salvage pa nang kriminal, daghan pa gihapong mga taw mahabilin oy, unya wa pa gyu’y seguro nga kriminal ba tong gipang-salvage." Di gyud mag-abot. Gi-klaro na gani nga kriminal, dili bisan kinsang tawo ang gi-salvage.

vern wrote:
You propose eliminating all to satisfy the belief that some might be guilty. Nothing is ever permanent but change ... yes. But you forget one other lesson history has taught us, that taking the law in your own hands is a step backwards if anything. Europe had it's middle ages. America had it's wild west. Most societies outgrow this stage.

Wrong. . I made no proposition to that effect. Don’t put words into my mouth. I said vigilante killings of criminals reduce their number. And I mean criminals in particular as I said, not the people in general as you said. One more correction, vigilantes eliminate criminals not on the basis of mere belief but on the basis of knowledge that their targets are what they are - criiminals. thus, the proposition to eliminate all "to satisfy the belief that some might be guilty" is just a product of unfounded belief of your own. poor attempt at mind reading.

Dark ages, wild west, roman or spanish inquisition period, whatever. The fact remains: you’re meandering again. Get back to the davao issue. Answer my question.

vern wrote:
I have NEVER said guilt was presumed. If anyone has stated anything remotely resembling that, you did. I NEVER said those ants were guilty. Those ants stood for people ... guilty or not. Do not change what I say to fit your arguments.

Vern, it seems you’ve mastered the art of missing my point. I did not say you had said guilt is presumed. I did say that “you presumed that the guilt of these criminals is presumed” by the vigilantes. In other words, you're accusing the vigilantes of killing their targets “because of presumed guilt”. got it? so who says here the guilt of vigilante targets is only presumed? again, not me, not other posters.

here's what you said:

Where is the good? You call more death because of presumed guilt ... good? However you look at this issue, there is no moral ground or moral justification that you imply exists.

see? you said guilt is "presumed" - not by you, but by the vigilantes. that's why you couldn''t find any good in vigilante killings.
that's why i said:

definitely there is no good IF, as your statement above made it appear, guilt is presumed.

but then IF guilt is certain, as it is to the vigilantes and the people who approve of it, is it still no good?

one more thing. nowhere in this thread have i ever said, expressly or impliedly, there is moral ground or justification for vigilante executions. the presence or absence of such moral ground is the very issue this topic seeks to resolve. my opening post says it all. my question above is clear.

and, lastly, back to the question: is the reduction in the number of criminals any good to you? yes or no.

[bad donkey!]

fight fire with fire..we should be gratefull that these guys are on our side..when ws the last time that you ever felt safe walking in the streets? that we could go around colon or carbon without fear of being robbed..this guys are striking fear into the hearts an midns and criminals. If it keeps these bad elements away from us in the streets then keep up the vigilante killings..The local and the national police has had the problem with robbers and has not solved the problem..

[nini]

My aunt who once lived in Mindanao during after People Power I. It was Cory Aquino's presidency when vigilante killings surface. Her stories were scary, she said, a family's father's head was cut off because he was a drunkard and beats his wife and children. Some heads in the morning are seen on top of the bridge rail. During that time, there was incredibly no more crime, and the village was very peaceful. After sundown everybody's already in their homes.

We have laws that govern our land, I guess that pretty much strikes all arguments. No matter how we benefit from the peace they may bring to our country, it's still is not right. Davao is more peaceful than the rest of the provinces and we know why. But when people are controlled by fear, where's democracy then?

[omar50071]

But when people are controlled by fear, where's democracy then?

Only the criminals are the subject of these vigilantes not the people, so there is nothing to worry about. These vigilantes are not against us, they help us eradicate the bad apples in the society, so that the people wont be controlled by fear against these criminals.

[nini]

I understand we're desperate when we talk about justice and peace, but we have laws that require due process. However we see it as good and beneficial to the general public, it is still a crime.

I know these vigilantes are people who want to initiate change and not wait for justice, but they're not the law.