DOG TIPS about breeding , buying and selling

[Shihpomapoo Dog Hotel]

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We can discuss here , maybe get tips from experts and dog lovers alike .
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2. When you buy , save enough money so you will get what you pay for . Dont rely on PET QUALITY since mao ni ang reason managhan ang PUPPY MILLS . Mo gara man sad sila kay they know someone out there will buy it .

3. Go for pedigreed dogs as much as possible , refer to number 2 . A dog that is pedigreed is your insurance knowing your dog is of PURE BREED . Many agrees with me but a lot will be offended but the fact needs to be told , a dog that has no papers is as good as nothing when we talk about quality .

4. A seller should only PRICE the puppies when it is out . I discourage RESERVATIONS and PRE PRICING basing on the parents status . Reason being is , ang lutas is about 8 weeks or 2 months and what if mamatay tanan ? Headache ilabi if non refundable na . Sa PRE PRICING pod , you cant predict the price of the pups based on the parents whereabouts because pila ka generations man ang giliwatan ana nila . Just because the parents are CHAMPIONS or HALL FAMERS doesnt mean anything sa puppy directly because these are man made achievements . What is important is ang TEMPERAMENT sa puppy and DRIVE .


These are all I can think of and come up for the moment , please ... BREED QUALITY DOGS and not for the sake na maka baligya mo and make some money and for the BUYERS na dili magmahay sa gi palit . Mao man na kasagaran na excuse nato ... " Sagdi na lang , dog lover bitaw ko . napugos na man lang na because naa na man . If given the chance to go back in time , I am pretty sure he or she wont buy that puppy for the amount he or she paid for it . If hinatag mas maayo . "

Please if naa mo maika add , do so aron daghan ta ma aware diri . This thread is for us to know and identify who are the PUPPY MILLS and BACKYARD BREEDERS and sa buyers pod na dili MAILAD .

I just want to comment on the points above.

For #2&3: There are actually Purebreed Poodles that has PCCI papers but are pet quality. The reason why they are only Pet Quality is because even if they have papers, they are not according to the breed standard recognized by AKC for a show dog. It doesn't change however the quality of their intelligence. I actually own two Pet Quality, pure breed toy & mini poodles with PCCI registration.

Tyler the Toy:

Sunday the Mini (Tyler's Mom):

They have a teddy bear face (a little rounder). Their hindquarters are a little set apart unlike the standard square figure of the poodle's built and their legs appear shorter. Having said that, this flaw also didn't affect Tyler's agility and gait.

I just found out about their kind coz they looked so different from my mini poodle (New York).

I found a forum on yahoo of someone inquiring where to find this particular type of poodle Does anyone know where I can adopt/buy a short-legged toy poodle? - Yahoo! Answers

//Does anyone know where I can adopt/buy a short-legged toy poodle?
I like short legged poodles. A lot. Like enough to buy one. But i can't find a place to get one... help me!

Additional Details
You may think it doesn't exist but my mom's best friend has one named buttons. i 'll post a picture of it sooner or later and prove it is real.. Buttons is 9 years old and REAL! it's just bread to have short legs. maybe she used to breed them... i just saw buttons yesterday. i should know if the breed exists or not. so don't give me a stupid answer like is this a joke or it doesn't exist. i asked the question for an ANSWER! honestly, i don't expect to get one. at least, not from u guys.//

and the response of knowledgeable peeps was:

//While toy poodles with short legs and long bodies do exist, they are considered to be poorly bred ones. The breed standard calls for long legs. A toy poodle should be as tall (at the whithers) as it is long. You will generally find the short-legged ones come from puppy mills or BYB's who don't care about trying to breed to the standard. I own 3 toy poodles and they all have beautiful, elegant long legs. I also maintain the websites for 8 toy poodle breeders, all of whom breed poodles for show.//


On this note, I finally understood that Tyler and Sunday were a line of poodle bred from puppy mill line (but its already a line in itself since this kind of poodle type are increasing in numbers).

I actually like this type of poodle as they are very submissive and endearingly cute- unlike my "show standard" poodle like New York - she looks more like a fashion model vs a pretty/beautiful hottie. They have different personalities but the same kind of intelligence. Tyler is more playful, alert, impulsive - very energetic. New York is more poised, more behaved, more aristocratic but also very agile and intelligent.

So the "quality standard" actually vary depending on what one is looking for. I don't really quite agree that only pedigreed dogs are quality dogs. It is not true.

I have mixed breed called Arkigirl, which I'm developing into a new breed and I'm calling her breed "Cebuchon - short for Cebu Bichon"

I'm guessing she's a mix of Shihtzu, Poodle & JRT (3rd generation). There's 3 of them that survive the litter. Since she's my first dog, I naturally spoiled her. She's very possessive and exclusive. She growls when strangers try to touch her. My friend would often criticize her being a mixed breed as the reason for her aggression. I was beginning to accept that until I met her other female sibling, Jandi, which is almost a carbon copy of her. Jandi behaves like my Poodle. She doesn't bite at all. She's none aggressive and absolutely well behaved.

So I figured, the problem was in my dog parenting. I spoiled her to a point that she developed dominance. I'm also guessing her aggression was triggered by one of the groomers I sent her to in the past (CVD, Dr. Bingols, Caminade - I don't know which one), and children who can be rough might also be the culprit, and probably my handling too as I have tried negative punishment on her before I learned that it's a no no for dogs - especially puppies).

My point being is, "PCCI" papers has no bearing on the guaranteed quality of the dogs. The only advantage of PCCI registration or purebreed registration is that you can trace their lineage. If one can trace the dog's lineage, one will know how to handle their dogs.

Another example was with my Beagle, Tamiya .
I've already had a total of 8 dogs before I got Tamiya. I thought I can handle all kind of dogs. Tamiya is a purebreed Beagle with PCCI papers and plenty of red marks and green marks. I was surprised because Tamiya can't be crate trained. No matter what I do, she just doesn't shut up. I was about to throw in the towel when I decided to google what a Beagle is like. That's when I found out that Beagles are ultra sensitive to sounds and movement. IN order to crate train them, I have to cover their crates. I did that and whala! it worked! That's the advantage of a registered dog because you can find data about their breeds.

For #4: I completely agree with you that //Just because the parents are CHAMPIONS or HALL FAMERS doesnt mean anything sa puppy directly because these are man made achievements . What is important is ang TEMPERAMENT sa puppy and DRIVE.// Amen to this. Many are so attached to the "Champion or Redmarks" but it doesn't really count unless both direct Dam & Sire are champions. I was told "Goodluck finding a truly champion sire willing to stud to dogs who doesn't have a direct champion line". If they do, it will be so darn expensive as well. I just learned about this fact recently.

[SPRINGFIELD_XD_40]

I just want to comment on the points above.

For #2&3: There are actually Purebreed Poodles that has PCCI papers but are pet quality. The reason why they are only Pet Quality is because even if they have papers, they are not according to the breed standard recognized by AKC for a show dog. It doesn't change however the quality of their intelligence. I actually own two Pet Quality, pure breed toy & mini poodles with PCCI registration.

I am talking about BREEDING here . If you dont patronized PET QUALITY DOGS because it is way cheaper , PUPPY MILLS wont exist or slow down at least because of not meeting the demand anymore.

That is the reason knowing the BREEDER and BREED prior to buying is really important . The reason why such conformation does not meet tus it is a PET QUALITY simply tells us that if you are breeding , you are not IMPROVING the BREED but rather basing from your previous statements , you want to DEVELOP a NEW BREED . That is wrong .

By the way , if I can provide you a link of a SIMILAR THREAD that is older than yours , should I delete your thread about POODLES ?

[Shihpomapoo Dog Hotel]

I am talking about BREEDING here . If you dont patronized PET QUALITY DOGS because it is way cheaper , PUPPY MILLS wont exist or slow down at least because of not meeting the demand anymore.

That is the reason knowing the BREEDER and BREED prior to buying is really important . The reason why such conformation does not meet tus it is a PET QUALITY simply tells us that if you are breeding , you are not IMPROVING the BREED but rather basing from your previous statements , you want to DEVELOP a NEW BREED . That is wrong .

By the way , if I can provide you a link of a SIMILAR THREAD that is older than yours , should I delete your thread about POODLES ?

Yes, we are talking about Breeding here- what do you think I was talking about? Pray tell me, I'm curious.

//If you dont patronized PET QUALITY DOGS because it is way cheaper , PUPPY MILLS wont exist or slow down at least because of not meeting the demand anymore.//

No, I am saying people should patronize dogs regardless if they are SHOW or PET Quality BECAUSE they want to own pets. If they can only afford dogs at a certain price, you can't really fault people for wanting to own one within their income level, can you? Are you saying that only people who can afford expensive dogs are capable of taking care of dogs? seriously? this logic that you are expecting people to follow is not only ridiculous but also discriminating.

To respond to your other point, Puppy mills exist because of economics. You cannot go against economics. If this strategy of yours (banning Pet Quality dogs meaning "mixed breeds" or non pedigree breeds) is effective, show me evidence that it is working. I would strongly claim, it isn't. You cannot stop people from breeding. It is their right and prerogative. You can't shame people for needing to earn money and expect them to obey you. They have needs that precedes your "personal preferences". What "I" suggested is instead of shaming them, why not encourage them to develop the breed so they can be "responsible" in informing their clients on the kind of breed they are selling. This way, there will be lesser surprises, lesser disappointments, and lesser angry people for not getting what they hope to get for a pet. This way, it will also motivate people to value the breed of their dogs because the breed is patented to them. That's not a bad thing. There are other ways to make people "be responsible". You cannot only achieve it by bullying or shaming them to stop.


//That is the reason knowing the BREEDER and BREED prior to buying is really important . The reason why such conformation does not meet tus it is a PET QUALITY simply tells us that if you are breeding , you are not IMPROVING the BREED but rather basing from your previous statements , you want to DEVELOP a NEW BREED . That is wrong . //

You seem attached to giving "value judgments" on my point of view. But if I give you a taste of your own medicine, I wonder if you'll get my point better.

Knowing the "breeder" and the breed is indeed important but it doesn't follow that a "breeder" cannot or MUST not breed "Pet Quality" dogs. As for "....The reason why such conformation "does not meet YOUR standards"?", Why should I care about what "YOU" think or what your standards are? Which "us" are you referring about? I'm a dog owner. What I care about is MY dog. My love for my dog. My patronage for my dog. FYI: The conformation standards exist because of the "NUMBER" of dogs who conform to that standards. Are you aware that the AKC are "CONTINUALLY" increasing its # of standards? It means that if there are more number of what we call now as "pet quality" and its conformity is shared consistently by an increasing number of dogs owned by people in a specific demographics, they can then make a "new standard" to include that particular breed. It doesn't seem like you understand the history of "pedigrees". I suggest that before you make claims, you make sure you back it up with facts. If you don't, your arguments can actually offend people and their intelligence. You can perhaps apologize ahead of time, but it doesn't make your comment "less offensive". What makes it less "offensive" is facts because with facts, people actually learn something that they can benefit from. If your claims are baseless, it remains an opinion - plainly an opinion. If you want to verify my arguments above, I suggest you Google the history of the term "pedigree" and why such a term exist.

And "improving" a breed is very subjective. The "improvement" depends on where one is coming from and what particular purpose the person is breeding their dogs for. If developing a breed is wrong, then we shouldn't have a Bichon Frise, Siberian Husky, Alaskan Malamute and many more. These dogs are developed breeds. All dogs were developed from the FOX colony. If they were not developed into a breed that can't coexist with humans, we would all be killed.

A whippet was developed from a cross of Greyhound and JRT over a LONG period of time- after several several generations of crossing and crisscrossing. A race dog owner will not think that a whippet is an improvement of the greyhound breed because it's not ever going to be as fast as a greyhound. However, it is an improvement because A whippet can be as sweet as a shihtzu. You can actually live with a whippet but not with a Greyhound. A JRT will not think a whippet is an improvement because a Whippet can never be as agile as a JRT because its height is so much taller. But a whippet is an improvement over a JRT because it can definitely run faster.

//By the way , if I can provide you a link of a SIMILAR THREAD that is older than yours , should I delete your thread about POODLES ?//

It depends what your objective is. If your objective is simply to stroke your ego that you are right, then I don't see the point of you proving it. But if your objective is to streamline the conversation between poodles into one thread, I see your point. However, it would make more sense to add the "inactive" thread to the "active" thread rather than the other way around, don't you think? Of course, if you still care to respect that I started and revive the thread for Poodle owners to take part on. Your choice.

[SPRINGFIELD_XD_40]

Yes, we are talking about Breeding here- what do you think I was talking about? Pray tell me, I'm curious.

Didnt you just emphasized about the credibility of PCCI and the dog that comes along with that registration ?

No, I am saying people should patronize dogs regardless if they are SHOW or PET Quality BECAUSE they want to own pets. If they can only afford dogs at a certain price, you can't really fault people for wanting to own one within their income level, can you? Are you saying that only people who can afford expensive dogs are capable of taking care of dogs? seriously? this logic that you are expecting people to follow is not only ridiculous but also discriminating.

Who said about SHOW QUALITY DOGS are expensive and are only available to people who have deep pockets ? Like you , the mere fact that you collect POODLES alone shows that you can afford it . It also follows that because you can afford it , why settle for show type qhen you know , unless you dont that it is not only limited sa physical appearance nila ? How about the health and temperament ? Why dont you settle for ASPINS instead kaha and not POODLES if you are getting the drift here .

To respond to your other point, Puppy mills exist because of economics. You cannot go against economics. If this strategy of yours (banning Pet Quality dogs meaning "mixed breeds" or non pedigree breeds) is effective, show me evidence that it is working. I would strongly claim, it isn't. You cannot stop people from breeding. It is their right and prerogative. You can't shame people for needing to earn money and expect them to obey you. They have needs that precedes your "personal preferences". What "I" suggested is instead of shaming them, why not encourage them to develop the breed so they can be "responsible" in informing their clients on the kind of breed they are selling. This way, there will be lesser surprises, lesser disappointments, and lesser angry people for not getting what they hope to get for a pet. This way, it will also motivate people to value the breed of their dogs because the breed is patented to them. That's not a bad thing. There are other ways to make people "be responsible". You cannot only achieve it by bullying or shaming them to stop.

Your definition of PET QUALITY DOGS simply puts you in the state of IGNORANCE . I thought dog lover ka ? Dont even talk about ECONOMICS if you love dogs. Unless you yourself operates a PUPPY MILL. You can always correct me on that but that happens even unkowingly mind you.

You seem attached to giving "value judgments" on my point of view. But if I give you a taste of your own medicine, I wonder if you'll get my point better.

Knowing the "breeder" and the breed is indeed important but it doesn't follow that a "breeder" cannot or MUST not breed "Pet Quality" dogs. As for "....The reason why such conformation "does not meet YOUR standards"?", Why should I care about what "YOU" think or what your standards are? Which "us" are you referring about? I'm a dog owner. What I care about is MY dog. My love for my dog. My patronage for my dog. FYI: The conformation standards exist because of the "NUMBER" of dogs who conform to that standards. Are you aware that the AKC are "CONTINUALLY" increasing its # of standards? It means that if there are more number of what we call now as "pet quality" and its conformity is shared consistently by an increasing number of dogs owned by people in a specific demographics, they can then make a "new standard" to include that particular breed. It doesn't seem like you understand the history of "pedigrees". I suggest that before you make claims, you make sure you back it up with facts. If you don't, your arguments can actually offend people and their intelligence. You can perhaps apologize ahead of time, but it doesn't make your comment "less offensive". What makes it less "offensive" is facts because with facts, people actually learn something that they can benefit from. If your claims are baseless, it remains an opinion - plainly an opinion. If you want to verify my arguments above, I suggest you Google the history of the term "pedigree" and why such a term exist.

Murag lagpas jud kaayo . Taas storya taas sayop . Read it again and analyzed the statement I said about IMPROVING the BREED and DEVELOPING a NEW BREED . Kinsa gud uroy ka in that authority . And you pointed the finger on me now ? Murag ikaw ang wala na aware ana .... what AKC has been doing lately is promote ALL AMERICAN HYBRID dogs like shipoo , labradoodle , etc to name a few popular designer breeds.

And "improving" a breed is very subjective. The "improvement" depends on where one is coming from and what particular purpose the person is breeding their dogs for. If developing a breed is wrong, then we shouldn't have a Bichon Frise, Siberian Husky, Alaskan Malamute and many more. These dogs are developed breeds. All dogs were developed from the FOX colony. If they were not developed into a breed that can coexist with humans, we would all be killed.

Dont twist my words and use it against me . We are discussing here DEVELOPING in a manner where you think A NEW BREED is needed over a IMPROVING an existing BREED .

A whippet was developed from a cross of Greyhound and JRT over a LONG period of time- after several several generations of crossing and crisscrossing. A race dog owner will not think that a whippet is an improvement of the greyhound breed because it's not ever going to be as fast as a greyhound. However, it is an improvement because A whippet can be as sweet as a shihtzu. You can actually live with a whippet but not with a Greyhound. A JRT will not think a whippet is an improvement because a Whippet can never be as agile as a JRT because its height is so much taller. But a whippet is an improvement over a JRT because it can definitely run faster.

Are you suggesting now that there is a need to develop a new breed ? On what grounds and forms are there to benefited from ? Are suggesting now that I should develop a breed like a cross of a Chihuahua and Rottie because I want a guard dog that is the same time small and of lesser maintenance ? You are only displaying here know hows that are googled instead of being in the same page just because you think DEVELOPING is better than IMPROVING .

It depends what your objective is. If your objective is simply to stroke your ego that you are right, then I don't see the point of you proving it. But if your objective is to streamline the conversation between poodles into one thread, I see your point. However, it would make more sense to add the "inactive" thread to the "active" thread rather than the other way around, don't you think? Of course, if you still care to respect that I started and revive the thread for Poodle owners to take part on. Your choice.

There are no " IT DEPENDS " , dont make it sound like I am a MOD and I can do that . I was waging something on your end because you claimed to have SEARCHED for it which I believed you did not. Obviously if you did , you find it just like how I found it unless I dont know what dogworld you are into that caters different hits for the search engine.

My choice ? Heck I could have deleted/locked it a long time ago if not of you asking it nicely which makes it more important because you put the effort into it.

[Shihpomapoo Dog Hotel]

Didnt you just emphasized about the credibility of PCCI and the dog that comes along with that registration ?


DId I emphasized the "credibility of PCCI"? Can you point out the part where I did? I emphasized the "benefits" of having a PCCI. It doesn't seem you understand "contextual differences", If you understand what I mean by that as well.


[Who said about SHOW QUALITY DOGS are expensive and are only available to people who have deep pockets ? Like you , the mere fact that you collect POODLES alone shows that you can afford it . It also follows that because you can afford it , why settle for show type qhen you know , unless you dont that it is not only limited sa physical appearance nila ? How about the health and temperament ? Why dont you settle for ASPINS instead kaha and not POODLES if you are getting the drift here .]

I collect Poodles because I love the breed and yes, it is affordable to me. I don't understand your second statement. Unless you intentionally want to keep the typo so I have to keep on guessing what you were trying to say. You need to learn to improve your writing construction so people (like myself) can better understand your point. If we (i) don't get it, try consider the possibility that your delivery may not be coherent. If you bothered to read "my posts" in detail, I was not only highlighting their physical appearance but temperaments as well. UNLESS of course, you're lacking in the English comprehension aspect.

I suggest again you read my post with more care before you continually embarrass yourself. I'm glad to know you are NOT a MOD, even if you can delete my posts. Because if you are a MOD and you respond like you do, this will definitely put the credibility of this forum in question. It doesn't seem like you have the sound mind and "maturity" to handle conversations like this since you seem to have "personal issues" when your point of view is questioned. What do you think?

[Your definition of PET QUALITY DOGS simply puts you in the state of IGNORANCE . I thought dog lover ka ? Dont even talk about ECONOMICS if you love dogs. Unless you yourself operates a PUPPY MILL. You can always correct me on that but that happens even unkowingly mind you.]

Here you go again with your "value judgment" as if you have elaborated your point as succinctly as possible. No, my definition of PET Quality Dogs is EXACTLY the same as your understanding of Pet Quality Dogs. Pet quality dogs, "as you claim" are those that do not conform to the "Pedigree standard" (wherein you yourself didn't provide a basis from). On another thread, I asked about the basis of KCCI Dog Show and somebody answered, FCI groupings. That was very helpful to me coz I am only familiar with AKC. So that person, gave a basis for me to work with. YOU DIDN'T.

I believe I am a dog lover. I own 17 dogs and I care for all 17 of them that I opened a dog hotel and grooming salon to take care of them. Is that dog lover enough for you?

I talked about Economics because it is a fact of life and relevant to the issue in question - the issue why "a lot of ethical issue arise from". I don't see your reference with my "love of dogs" and my arguments about "economics" within the context of dog breeding for "pet quality dogs". What does that have to do with anything. What is your point?

I don't operate a Puppy Mill. My first bitch just gave birth and I'm still thinking if I should sell them or not because I love them already. I haven't sold a single dog. I end up pricing them so high because I can't bear the thought of giving them to someone who can't possibly take care of them like I do. Is that a Puppy Mill mentality?

[Murag lagpas jud kaayo . Taas storya taas sayop . Read it again and analyzed the statement I said about IMPROVING the BREED and DEVELOPING a NEW BREED . Kinsa gud uroy ka in that authority . And you pointed the finger on me now ? Murag ikaw ang wala na aware ana .... what AKC has been doing lately is promote ALL AMERICAN HYBRID dogs like shipoo , labradoodle , etc to name a few popular designer breeds.]

It seems the problem is with you. Taas ang storya, ang sayop naa sa imong kulang na pagsabot. Possible? Nalagpas na lang hinuun ko kay di man ka kasabot. Try to consider na basin naa sa imong panghuna huna ang problema. Between the two of us, it seems you are the one who needs to spend more time "reading and getting educated". Between the two of us, and you can ask your fellow MOD to verify it for you if your responses are in any way or form "logically coherent". You are so fond of condemning my points without you providing anything to support your argument. Your bully words really is not giving you any "positive points" except you deluding yourself that you are making a point. FYI: You are not.

I am a participant of this particular conversation which I believe I am given the authority by this site to respond provided that I make sense and that I do so in a courteous manner. I'm not imposing my authority - unlike you. All I gave are suggestions and another point of view. Now, I ask you. And be honest with yourself. If you compare my response to yours, who do you think have exercised courtesy and restraint here? Who's using derogatory terms here to personally attack anyone? If you feel frustrated because you are not articulating your points well, I suggest you improve on it instead of blaming others (meaning me) for your obvious lack of comprehension.

[Dont twist my words and use it against me . We are discussing here DEVELOPING in a manner where you think A NEW BREED is needed over a IMPROVING an existing BREED . ]

I cannot twist your words (there's not much to twist coz you didn't give enough credible facts to work with). I'm only quoting you based on what you posted. If you don't want my comments to "reveal" how incoherent your post is, correct your post to clarify your point. Don't blame me if that's how it came across to me. Prove it in writing. Prove it here, how I "supposedly" twisted your words and use it against you. I can't do that. I can only do that if your post is problematic. You may be the one using your own words against you.

I am saying that "developing a breed" is better than the puppy mill culture. I wasn't choosing a new developed breed over improving an existing breed. I have no problems with pedigree dogs as I own several myself. I only have one mixed breed. I understand, however, where people operating a "puppy mill" is coming from. I don't support them but I understand why they are doing it. Shaming them is not going to stop the puppy mill mentality. Educating them and showing them another incentive where they can still earn from their puppies while staying responsible is another way to prevent the upsurge of puppy mills.


[Are you suggesting now that there is a need to develop a new breed ? On what grounds and forms are there to benefited from ? ]

Exactly my point. The grounds are clearly stated above and my other points. Go read again. I suggest you read "carefully".

[Are suggesting now that I should develop a breed like a cross of a Chihuahua and Rottie because I want a guard dog that is the same time small and of lesser maintenance ? You are only displaying here know hows that are googled instead of being in the same page just because you think DEVELOPING is better than IMPROVING .]

I'm suggesting that for those who feel they need to develop a new breed, they should. For those who have an accidental cross of two breeds should consider developing a new breed to control the prevalence of the new breed created, I suggest YES. I don't understand your last sentence. You may want to correct it so I can understand your point better.


[There are no " IT DEPENDS " , dont make it sound like I am a MOD and I can do that . I was waging something on your end because you claimed to have SEARCHED for it which I believed you did not. Obviously if you did , you find it just like how I found it unless I dont know what dogworld you are into that caters different hits for the search engine. ]

I'm not making you sound like an MOD. Your STATEMENT made you sound like you are someone who can delete a thread. YOU made yourself sound like an MOD. And based on the above, it seems your objective is to stroke your ego indeed. I didn't find it because I didn't. You are way too presumptuous. It's a feedback that I couldn't find it. Perhaps your systems engineer need to improve on the search engine to make sure that others can find it. Obviously, you have advantage because you have been using this forum longer than I do but it doesn't mean a newbie like myself can figure it out like you do. Such arrogance. It would be nice if you are arrogant and you have something to show for that display of arrogance. You don't. You are still not educating me on how to locate the Poodle Owners Forum page. You didn't even provide a link. You just "claimed" for it to be there, but you didn't provide the link.

[My choice ? Heck I could have deleted/locked it a long time ago if not of you asking it nicely which makes it more important because you put the effort into it.

Seriously, I could care less if you delete or lock it. I'm not the one losing. The poodle "society" in this page are the ones losing because an "insecure MOD" with an EGO as huge as a mountain top can't handle the fact that a newbie is kicking his ass in this forum. Probably you hate poodles because you're a rottie. If you know what I mean.

[SPRINGFIELD_XD_40]

DId I emphasized the "credibility of PCCI"? Can you point out the part where I did? I emphasized the "benefits" of having a PCCI. It doesn't seem you understand "contextual differences", If you understand what I mean by that as well.

Denial queen pod ka da . Why dont you go back to the statement where you clearly said something about FAKE registrations that does not appropriately belong to the suposed registered dog . Intawn mo abot man ka sa contextual contextual . That PCCI dont take a look at how many to be exact ang number of litters . Then come back here .

I collect Poodles because I love the breed and yes, it is affordable to me. I don't understand your second statement. Unless you intentionally want to keep the typo so I have to keep on guessing what you were trying to say. You need to learn to improve your writing construction so people (like myself) can better understand your point. If we (i) don't get it, try consider the possibility that your delivery may not be coherent. If you bothered to read "my posts" in detail, I was not only highlighting their physical appearance but temperaments as well. UNLESS of course, you're lacking in the English comprehension aspect.

Dont even go there . Like I said dont twist words . If the case is that POODLES sounds more interesting to you because you love the breed , dont make it sound its affordable for everyone because you personally love and interested in it. If you cant get the drift , then dont ride. ga tuga tuga man ka gud.

I suggest again you read my post with more care before you continually embarrass yourself. I'm glad to know you are NOT a MOD, even if you can delete my posts. Because if you are a MOD and you respond like you do, this will definitely put the credibility of this forum in question. It doesn't seem like you have the sound mind and "maturity" to handle conversations like this since you seem to have "personal issues" when your point of view is questioned. What do you think?

It is the other way around . You should read my post and put substance into the contents rather than plant you personal point of views that caters only to your reservations.

Here you go again with your "value judgment" as if you have elaborated your point as succinctly as possible. No, my definition of PET Quality Dogs is EXACTLY the same as your understanding of Pet Quality Dogs. Pet quality dogs, "as you claim" are those that do not conform to the "Pedigree standard" (wherein you yourself didn't provide a basis from). On another thread, I asked about the basis of KCCI Dog Show and somebody answered, FCI groupings. That was very helpful to me coz I am only familiar with AKC. So that person, gave a basis for me to work with. YOU DIDN'T.

And irony ..... we have the same definition of PET QUAITY DOGS yet you loudly announced , MY CLAIM . Dont contradict yourself please. You will end up ug gapasagad ug pataka.

I believe I am a dog lover. I own 17 dogs and I care for all 17 of them that I opened a dog hotel and grooming salon to take care of them. Is that dog lover enough for you?

Seriously ? And honestly coming from me ? NO ! Because if you love dogs , you handle and take care of them personally . The moment you employ people to take of your dogs , it creates an environment of monetary gains courtesy of your 4 legged buddies . Unless you employ people , build an enterprise solely for the benefit of your 17 dogs . Basin mo tuo pa ko . Unless you think that the more dogs you have , the more responsibilities you have , the more people will think you are a DOG LOVER.

talked about Economics because it is a fact of life and relevant to the issue in question - the issue why "a lot of ethical issue arise from". I don't see your reference with my "love of dogs" and my arguments about "economics" within the context of dog breeding for "pet quality dogs". What does that have to do with anything. What is your point?

That is where the IMPROVEMENT of BREED arrivews to a point on what species are used to be bred . Ga tuo man gud ka ikaw ra ang naay iro and ikaw ra nakahibalo unless imong i deny na pod na . Economics ka diyan .

I don't operate a Puppy Mill. My first bitch just gave birth and I'm still thinking if I should sell them or not because I love them already. I haven't sold a single dog. I end up pricing them so high because I can't bear the thought of giving them to someone who can't possibly take care of them like I do. Is that a Puppy Mill mentality?

No you are not based on your statement . Good for you !

It seems the problem is with you. Taas ang storya, ang sayop naa sa imong kulang na pagsabot. Possible? Nalagpas na lang hinuun ko kay di man ka kasabot. Try to consider na basin naa sa imong panghuna huna ang problema. Between the two of us, it seems you are the one who needs to spend more time "reading and getting educated". Between the two of us, and you can ask your fellow MOD to verify it for you if your responses are in any way or form "logically coherent". You are so fond of condemning my points without you providing anything to support your argument. Your bully words really is not giving you any "positive points" except you deluding yourself that you are making a point. FYI: You are not.

Did I bully you ? if I did , you not be here anymore making your arrogant claims .

I am a participant of this particular conversation which I believe I am given the authority by this site to respond provided that I make sense and that I do so in a courteous manner. I'm not imposing my authority - unlike you. All I gave are suggestions and another point of view. Now, I ask you. And be honest with yourself. If you compare my response to yours, who do you think have exercised courtesy and restraint here? Who's using derogatory terms here to personally attack anyone? If you feel frustrated because you are not articulating your points well, I suggest you improve on it instead of blaming others (meaning me) for your obvious lack of comprehension.

Dont resort to things imaginable only because you thought of yourself of being so up there . Kagawsan niom ana SWITIKS ka . WHy would you employ interactions that involves people yet you are only basing the world populated by only me and you ? Again nag CONTRADICT na pod ka .

I cannot twist your words (there's not much to twist coz you didn't give enough credible facts to work with). I'm only quoting you based on what you posted. If you don't want my comments to "reveal" how incoherent your post is, correct your post to clarify your point. Don't blame me if that's how it came across to me. Prove it in writing. Prove it here, how I "supposedly" twisted your words and use it against you. I can't do that. I can only do that if your post is problematic. You may be the one using your own words against you.

Take a good reading of your statements about MPROVING the BREED and DEVELOPING a NEWBREED . Dont make me write , kamao man kaha ka mo basa ? UNless di kamao mo sabot then I would understand .

I am saying that "developing a breed" is better than the puppy mill culture. I wasn't choosing a new developed breed over improving an existing breed. I have no problems with pedigree dogs as I own several myself. I only have one mixed breed. I understand, however, where people operating a "puppy mill" is coming from. I don't support them but I understand why they are doing it. Shaming them is not going to stop the puppy mill mentality. Educating them and showing them another incentive where they can still earn from their puppies while staying responsible is another way to prevent the upsurge of puppy mills.

Naa ra man diay na .... abi nako wala ka nakasabot . But then again .... ayaw usba . I mentioned POUPPY MILLS , not you , you were just stucked in the notion of DEVELOPING a BREED over IMPROVING an EXISTING BREED . basin ang definition sa duha maoy gikalibgan nimo .

Exactly my point. The grounds are clearly stated above and my other points. Go read again. I suggest you read "carefully".

Not your points being presented above but the original statement you presented between developing a breed and improving the breed . redundant na kaayo ka dong.

I'm suggesting that for those who feel they need to develop a new breed, they should. For those who have an accidental cross of two breeds should consider developing a new breed to control the prevalence of the new breed created, I suggest YES. I don't understand your last sentence. You may want to correct it so I can understand your point better.

You entirely dont know what is RESPONSIBLE BREEDING . If you produced mixed breeds accidentally , have them NEUTERED or SPAYED . If out of pedigreed dogs , do the same thing . UNless di kamao mo distinguished unsay quality dogs over pet types . But then again , unhan ti ka , because of your love of twisting words , PET QUALITY DOGS also deserves the love , care and attention the showtype/quaity littermates they get.

I'm not making you sound like an MOD. Your STATEMENT made you sound like you are someone who can delete a thread. YOU made yourself sound like an MOD. And based on the above, it seems your objective is to stroke your ego indeed. I didn't find it because I didn't. You are way too presumptuous. It's a feedback that I couldn't find it. Perhaps your systems engineer need to improve on the search engine to make sure that others can find it. Obviously, you have advantage because you have been using this forum longer than I do but it doesn't mean a newbie like myself can figure it out like you do. Such arrogance. It would be nice if you are arrogant and you have something to show for that display of arrogance. You don't. You are still not educating me on how to locate the Poodle Owners Forum page. You didn't even provide a link. You just "claimed" for it to be there, but you didn't provide the link.

That is if you searched for it . The reason why I said that is because if I can search for it , so does you . Kabalo man diya NEWBIE kang dako , you better ask rather than talk . Feeling bright man ka gud but a very simple task that only needs commonsense wala nimo ma accomplish.

Seriously, I could care less if you delete or lock it. I'm not the one losing. The poodle "society" in this page are the ones losing because an "insecure MOD" with an EGO as huge as a mountain top can't handle the fact that a newbie is kicking his ass in this forum. Probably you hate poodles because you're a rottie. If you know what I mean.

I am not insecure , I am policing on threads where proper and appropriate postings are being consumed . I see your effort upt into it unless ikaw ang di kamao mo basa mao I will leave it like that for everyones consumption . The existing thread does not contain information as much as how you made your thread .

I am not a ROTTIE owner mind you . SWITIKS na pod ka da .

[Shihpomapoo Dog Hotel]

Denial queen pod ka da . Why dont you go back to the statement where you clearly said something about FAKE registrations that does not appropriately belong to the suposed registered dog . Intawn mo abot man ka sa contextual contextual . That PCCI dont take a look at how many to be exact ang number of litters . Then come back here .

Dong, kalabad nimo ka storya oi. This is the problem when people like yourself is so "tapulan". Maklaro gyud na you didn't bother to read kay gahi ka ug ulo. I feel like I'm talking to a "tiguwang" na di jud ka pasar ug grade 1. If you look at my other posts out there being "well researched" man kuno ka, I did explain that that is the only problem with PCCI - they don't inspect the dog. I confirmed that on one of your posts. Sigurado ka dong nga nagbasa ka? or ga sige lang ka ug assume. Basin daghan naka nakalalis dinhi gi memorize na nimo imong tubag coz you are so lazy to change your awful ways? You just can't take in feedback to make yourself a better person and to allow yourself to learn how to argue "better" and not in an offensive manner.

Dong, if you bother to understand the meaning of "contextual difference" - I can guarantee, you'll go a long way in life. I'm guessing your a spoiled brat sleeping the entire day and taking a break just to see if there's a post you can build some self-importance from. Am I hitting so close to home? If I am, try to consider that your issues on this thread are your own and I have nothing to do with it.

Dont even go there . Like I said dont twist words . If the case is that POODLES sounds more interesting to you because you love the breed , dont make it sound its affordable for everyone because you personally love and interested in it. If you cant get the drift , then dont ride. ga tuga tuga man ka gud.

Unsa lagi akong i-twist nga dili man gani masabtan imong point kay ga sige lang ka ug panaway. Ga sige lang ka ug ingon "your wrong your wrong" pero wala kay gi present nga facts and valid argument except your own "opinion" claiming them as facts. Poodles don't SOUND interesting to me - they ARE interesting coz I own 8 of them. I observe them and their intelligence and sense of humor never cease to amaze me. Kasabot ka ana dong? I am making it sound affordable because it is to me! What's affordable to me may not be affordable to you and what's affordable to you may not be affordable to me. I don't have to make it sound anything. Take it as it is. How anyone chose to interpret it is their call and I will not impose their "supposed" interpretation like what you are doing coz YOU seem to think you KNOW what everyone else is thinking even if you are too lazy to actually read, let alone think, let alone make an inference. Kasabot ka unsa nang inference dong?

It is the other way around . You should read my post and put substance into the contents rather than plant you personal point of views that caters only to your reservations.

Dong, dishonesty becomes so YOU. What other way are you talking about? I'm planting my personal point of views as mine and I don't claim it to be yours and everybody else's and I don't claim it to be a law that everybody should obey. I am merely stating my point of view to "contrast" yours. If you don't agree with me, no sweat - it's no big deal. I don't agree with you and here you are crying foul because you are way too arrogant and insecure that you can't take in an opposing point of view. We call that kind of person "immature". I suggest you take some time to make yourself aware that "man, you [Springfield_XD_40] need to grow up!". I hope 40 does not signify your age coz if it does, murag tangason kaayo ang imong dalan sa pagusab - pero pwede pa kung gustohon gyud nimo dong. So I hope you're not 40 already para di sad tawn ko naka disrespect ug hapit na ma senior citizen.

And irony ..... we have the same definition of PET QUAITY DOGS yet you loudly announced , MY CLAIM . Dont contradict yourself please. You will end up ug gapasagad ug pataka.


I said "You claim" to acknowledge that you did make that claim and I wasn't just "assuming" that you made that claim. Gets? That's how you argue dong. To make your arguments safe na dili heresay, make sure you have a basis of your source. I sourced you with your claim. Wa jud ko nagcontradict sa akong self dong. Balik na pud ta sa "contextual differences". Kung dili ka kabalo mu determine sa differences, para nimo, nagcontradict ko. Pero sige na lang, sabton na lang taka na possible gyud nga di ka kasabot kung unsa na.

Seriously ? And honestly coming from me ? NO ! Because if you love dogs , you handle and take care of them personally . The moment you employ people to take of your dogs , it creates an environment of monetary gains courtesy of your 4 legged buddies . Unless you employ people , build an enterprise solely for the benefit of your 17 dogs . Basin mo tuo pa ko . Unless you think that the more dogs you have , the more responsibilities you have , the more people will think you are a DOG LOVER.

So far, this is the only comment you made that you actually made sense. You made an excellent point that getting many dogs doesn't mean one loves dog. It's true. It also doesn't mean that employing people to build an enterprise solely for the benefit of my 17 dogs that one love their dogs. It could just mean that one's ego is so big and think that the more number of dogs one have, it becomes a status symbol. I heard my vet talked about people like that all the time.

However, I will not defend my "love for my dogs" since only people whose opinion I care about matters to me. I don't know you so your opinion of "how much I love my dogs" is moot. But, to build on your argument to show that I do value the "rationality" you exercised in coming up with such analysis, let me ask you:

Is it possible to open a dog hotel and grooming salon to care for dogs while also make it financially sustainable to pay for the expenses and salary of those operating the dog hotel and open it up to service others? Is it possible that since the primary objective of the business owner is to take care of one's own dogs, that that particular owner can extend services to "others" unique from "commercially" existing dog shops? Is it possible that that particular owner can easily adjust prices to accommodate clients that only have limited means especially dog owners who got their puppies from the pound or kill shelter, or even educate ASPIN owners to groom their dogs, care for their dogs, encourage them to have them vet checked and vet vaccinated since the service is personalized? If the objective is purely commercial, do you think that such adjustment and allowances is conceivable as good for business or good to increase financial profits? You tell me.

what if the monetary gains is JUST ENOUGH to sustain the operations? do you still consider that an enterprise whose primary objective is commercial?

FYI: I take care of the 5. The remaining 12 are in the dog hotel coz my condo association only allows the sound of 2 dogs . Fortunately, I have the "quietest" dogs in the world. So it sounds like I only have one dog. If you know of a cure how to stop wanting to get more dogs, send it my way. I love getting more dogs because they each have different personalities that fascinate me. I find them more intelligent than I do most humans. No offense.

That is where the IMPROVEMENT of BREED arrivews to a point on what species are used to be bred . Ga tuo man gud ka ikaw ra ang naay iro and ikaw ra nakahibalo unless imong i deny na pod na . Economics ka diyan .

How does "improvement of the breed" comes into view? I'm trying to understand your statement. Are you affirming that all breeds came from the Fox Colony? I don't think I'm the only dog owner here and I'm the only one who knows about dogs. Like duh...we are all here because we are dog owners right? If I think I'm the only one, what's the point of me being here? This would simply be a waste of my time joining this forum if I'm not getting any valuable inputs here. In fact, I learned a lot about dogs because I spoke to many people from this forum and read all the post from other threads. After reading, I then google more than one sources to verify if their claims are correct. I don't only settle there, I also ask my vet and other vets, compare their opinion and I settle on the most reasonable middle ground. That's how I process information dong. I've actually found a lot of interesting people who gave me valuable inputs. So far, you havent. And yes, I think you need to understand "economics". It's not too late to learn about its actual application in real life.

No you are not based on your statement . Good for you !

Good. At least we are clear about this.

Did I bully you ? if I did , you not be here anymore making your arrogant claims .

Yes you did bully me and other dog owners who own PET QUALITY dogs and are breeding. Not deleting my post doesn't prove you are NOT a bully. Deleting my post would mean you are not only insecure, you are a coward too. But the bullying stands. I suggest you read your posts again and see why I think you are bully. You can ask your fellow MOD's opinion. Be sure if you do though that you are willing to take some "honest feedback".Be humble and ask them what they think of your post. If they are able to come up with a forum as dynamic as this for so long, It would be safe to infer that they can understand what I mean and where I am coming from. But who knows, I can be wrong with my assessment. People are people after all.

Dont resort to things imaginable only because you thought of yourself of being so up there . Kagawsan niom ana SWITIKS ka . WHy would you employ interactions that involves people yet you are only basing the world populated by only me and you ? Again nag CONTRADICT na pod ka .

What do you mean "don't resort to things imaginable"? Perhaps you are saying not to resort to "assumptions"? No, I don't think of myself as up anywhere. But I do think of myself as reasonable and I'm sure if you allow yourself to be such, you can be too. Wa jud ko kasabot unsa nang SWITIKS dong. Sorry na lang.

I am employing interactions that involve other people because....hello newsflash? this is a forum? like we have an audience here in case you forgot. Makahilak man ko nimo dong. Medyo slow lagi ka gamay.

Take a good reading of your statements about MPROVING the BREED and DEVELOPING a NEWBREED . Dont make me write , kamao man kaha ka mo basa ? UNless di kamao mo sabot then I would understand .

Na, mao na ni ron. Nagpakita lang ka nga tapulan ka mubasa ang manangil pa ka nako sa imong pagkatapulan. See? conflict arises when the other person is too lazy to understand. I am trying my hardest to understand you that's why nangayo ko ug clarification. Kalabad nimo dong oi.


Naa ra man diay na .... abi nako wala ka nakasabot . But then again .... ayaw usba . I mentioned POUPPY MILLS , not you , you were just stucked in the notion of DEVELOPING a BREED over IMPROVING an EXISTING BREED . basin ang definition sa duha maoy gikalibgan nimo .

Makahilak na gyud ko hapit dong. Hagbay ra kaayo nako gi klaro unsa akong buot ipasabot. Wa jud koy giusab dong..naa lang koy gidungag aron makasabot ka ug ayo. Again, understand what "contextual differences" mean. Basaha palihug ug tarong akong argument about Puppy Mills and the connection of developing a breed. Read also the connection between Pedigree and improving an existing breed. Kay murag ikaw intawn dong ang wala na nakasabot sa imong mga gi pang post. Naglibog na siguro ka kay medyo you are realizing siguro na kulang gamay imong nahibaw-an noh? Ok ra na. Admit lang sa imong kaugalingon. Miski dili na lang ka muadmit nako or dire, show it na lang by improving your comments/responses. that is fine with me.



Not your points being presented above but the original statement you presented between developing a breed and improving the breed . redundant na kaayo ka dong.

Aw, naa ra man diay na. Kung redundant kaayo, dapat nakasabot ka? mura man gud gihapon nga wala. Di ba? Let's try some honesty beh kay ikaw ra gihapon ang pildi kung magpa pretend ka kanunay na nakasabot ka sa atong gi istoryahan. Murag akong duda, nasaag na ka. I suggest you get someone you trust and respect to walk you through these arguments - that is if it matters to you. If it doesn't, then no big deal but just learn to accept and acknowledge other people's point of view instead of giving "value judgement" - meaning telling them they are "right or wrong" because you don't have command over another person's preference and you are not the judge. Ika nga, according to Jesus "Cast the first stone for those who have never sinned". Are you getting the "contextual metaphor"? Lahi napud na ha. I'm talking about "contextual metaphor" not "differences".


You entirely dont know what is RESPONSIBLE BREEDING . If you produced mixed breeds accidentally , have them NEUTERED or SPAYED . If out of pedigreed dogs , do the same thing . UNless di kamao mo distinguished unsay quality dogs over pet types . But then again , unhan ti ka , because of your love of twisting words , PET QUALITY DOGS also deserves the love , care and attention the showtype/quaity littermates they get.

See, this is what I mean by you making value judgement. How do you know what I know about Responsible Breeding? Do you know me? Do you know my breeding practices enough to arrive at a judgement? Mixed breeds are produced at all times. It's called an "accident" because it was not intended yet it happened. Neutering or Spaying them is an ethical choice. And my ethical choice is NOT to neuter or spay them because I intend to breed them. However, for some reason, an accident happened between my dogs. What can I do with that? There's several ways to go. I can abort the puppies. I can continue with the puppies. At birth, I can choose to sell the puppies or I can choose to keep them. Again, those are choices for me. I'm the only one who can make that choice for my dogs because they are MY dogs. How I choose to dispose of them is dependent on my "philosophy" or my "ethical" stand. You cannot judge me whatsoever. You will do things differently and I will do things differently. There are however others who produce sickly puppies and sell them to owners that will later mourn for their puppies. This is where the breeder's freedom ends and responsibility begins. There are so many scenarios to look at. Some things are not that straightforward and you have to be willing to see the different considerations. When you do that, you can think of better ways to address the different kinds of "problematic issues". Similarly, it is advocated now to use "positive reinforcement" in dog training as opposed to "negative punishment". If you can extend that courtesy to dogs, why not to humans as well?

That is if you searched for it . The reason why I said that is because if I can search for it , so does you . Kabalo man diya NEWBIE kang dako , you better ask rather than talk . Feeling bright man ka gud but a very simple task that only needs commonsense wala nimo ma accomplish.

Sus, kagahi nimo ug ulo oi. Giingnan tika nga nangita ko ang wa ko ka kita. Nangutana gani ko nimo, binogo man imong tubag. Pilosopo ba. Ka gets ka ana? dili Philosophy ha? Pilosopo. I don't have to feel bright like you. I'm pretty confident of my intelligence as a person. Ma irritate lang ko ug taw nga magpabogo bogo because they are too lazy to change their awful bad habits.

I am not insecure , I am policing on threads where proper and appropriate postings are being consumed . I see your effort upt into it unless ikaw ang di kamao mo basa mao I will leave it like that for everyones consumption . The existing thread does not contain information as much as how you made your thread .

Good. Police the threads but learn how to handle your authority with restraint. Matud pa sa spiderman, "with power comes responsibility" - di ba?

I am not a ROTTIE owner mind you . SWITIKS na pod ka da .

You may not be a Rottie owner but you argue like a Rottie - the literal word i.e. ...familiar with a Rotten Tomato?. Sige, maghuman na ta dinhi kay wa jud ko kasabot anang SWITIKS.

[SPRINGFIELD_XD_40]

@ SHIHPOMAPOO ....

Lets just agree to disagree .

I apologized for my arrogance and shortcomings . Just continue to share what you think is right . Peace sir !

[EdTV]

nice information bro. tnx

[taz101punk]

nice discussions...

now, it will depend on the readers on how to take this issue with two different opinions...

thanks for sharing your thoughts...

Godbless us all...