The KOBE vs JORDAN Debate

[diatabz]

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Well... This is one played out debate...

I'd say MJ he's a basketball icon...but....

The Black Mamba has the potential to be greatest. It's amusing how everybody is saying that Kobe has those rings because of Shaq. Well, MJ has those 6 rings because of Pip. Shaq and Kobe couldn't have done it without each other and neither does MJ and Pip. It's also amusing that everybody is saying that Kobe is such "a ballhog and I hate him".....the irony is....during MJ's time they also were saying the same things. I should know coz' I watched, hated and everntually appreciated MJ and Kobe.

Both can inspire their teams to play better but unfortunately for the Mamba, the supporting cast that he is surrounded especially his 2nd scorer is very inconsistent in both offense and defense. Odom is a far cry from Pip in terms of performance and durability.

My bad but I have to disagree. You can't just attribute the rings to Pippen. If you took Pippen out and you left the rest of the bulls intact along with Jordan they still would've made it to the finals. Proof of that? When MJ retired, Pippen led the bulls to a 55-27 record, only two less than their previous championship year with Jordan still on the team. If you followed the play-offs during that time, you would know that Pippen acted like an immature brat against the knicks and there was also that debatable foul. Now imagine if MJ led that team even without Pippen. Oh, and Shaq still would've won at least the 2001 and 2002 rings without Kobe. He had Fox, Fisher, Grant, and George -and besides Shaq was unstoppable during those seasons. It sounds messed up but Kobe was a sidekick those times.


Just a few points...

1. DEFENSE
- MJ is an excellent defensive player, perhaps one of the best defensive shooting guards.
- Kobe has problems with playing sound defense. He's reaching his peak now, round 28 but insists that he has his own gameplan. He can play defense mind you, but if you've see Jordan defend for yourself...

2. POSTING-UP
Kobe fans will be please to know that Kobe is pretty much MJ's equal in terms of posting up except for one flaw...

This is according to Tex Winter-

“What’s happened to Kobe and his post play — and he is a great post player — is that he’s catching the ball just out of the lane and the defenders are forcing him out toward the wing. It’s hard for him to get a deep post position, Michael had a knack for holding his ground a little better than Kobe. Those strong defenders force Kobe out of there. When that happens, we need to go away from Kobe, instead of challenging the defense there. You don’t want him to start on the post and end up out on the wing.”

3. SHOOTING
Ok, props going out to Kobe this time... HE IS A BORN SHOOTER. When he started out he was already brilliant. MJ really developed as he progressed thru the league but Kobe has always had a knack with the jump shot. I'm not saying MJ's not an excellent jump-shooter, it's just that he rarely took the "kobe-esque" shots. I guess you could say MJ had better shot selection. Kobe took ridiclously hard looks that made people criticize him AND MADE THEM. It's either a whole lot of talent or a whole lot of luck. Now in terms of 3's... Hmmm... I can't really say... Both are wicked 3 point shooters so i reckon they're equal in that department.


Finally the STATS...


Well I guess you guys pretty much know 'em... so i'll leave it at that.

KB24 will be one of the greatest basketball players to have ever lived, that's a guarantee. Pero dili jud ka-match up sa legacy ni Jordan.

[PeteBull9]

Jordan does it all and the greatest of them all..
Kobe is just a scoring machine and is Selfish too..

Basketball is not all about scoring..

[Blitzwing]

My bad but I have to disagree. You can't just attribute the rings to Pippen. If you took Pippen out and you left the rest of the bulls intact along with Jordan they still would've made it to the finals. Proof of that? When MJ retired, Pippen led the bulls to a 55-27 record, only two less than their previous championship year with Jordan still on the team. If you followed the play-offs during that time, you would know that Pippen acted like an immature brat against the knicks and there was also that debatable foul. Now imagine if MJ led that team even without Pippen. Oh, and Shaq still would've won at least the 2001 and 2002 rings without Kobe. He had Fox, Fisher, Grant, and George -and besides Shaq was unstoppable during those seasons. It sounds messed up but Kobe was a sidekick those times.


Just a few points...

1. DEFENSE
- MJ is an excellent defensive player, perhaps one of the best defensive shooting guards.
- Kobe has problems with playing sound defense. He's reaching his peak now, round 28 but insists that he has his own gameplan. He can play defense mind you, but if you've see Jordan defend for yourself...

2. POSTING-UP
Kobe fans will be please to know that Kobe is pretty much MJ's equal in terms of posting up except for one flaw...

This is according to Tex Winter-

“What’s happened to Kobe and his post play — and he is a great post player — is that he’s catching the ball just out of the lane and the defenders are forcing him out toward the wing. It’s hard for him to get a deep post position, Michael had a knack for holding his ground a little better than Kobe. Those strong defenders force Kobe out of there. When that happens, we need to go away from Kobe, instead of challenging the defense there. You don’t want him to start on the post and end up out on the wing.”

Nice....I dunno about you but you just affirmed what I said about MJ needing Pip and Shaq needing Kobe and vice versa. Yes I do agree that Pip carried the Bulls to the Eastern Conference finals in the season after MJ's first retirement. This goes to show that Pip and the Bulls were VERY consistent on what they do. However they fell short thanks to Knicks and even if you replaced Pip with MJ...they still will fall short simply because the Bulls had some problems with points production. True that Toni was there but he's no MJ who was very clutch. During MJ's 1st comeback, they even fell short thanks to the dynamic duo of Shaq and Penny. Now about Shaq and the Lakers without Kobe....They can prolly make the playoffs because Shaq is dominating but without a second scorer like Mamba...Shaq wouldn't get enough breathing room from the double teams that they constantly throw. Lest you forget during their time in the playoffs they were up against very tough Western Conference teams such as Bibby and C-Webb of the Queens and Timmy D and Tony Parker of the Spurs. Having Fox, George, Big Shot Rob and even ex-Bull Ron Harper wasn't enough for the Lakeshow without Mamba. The current Lakers roster will not even make it to the playoffs without Mamba.

Now about the post up...you failed to mention that Tex Winters also said that Kobe wasn't able to fully develop posting up because he was playing most of the time with a post up monster like Shaq in which there was no real need for Mamba to have a post up play. Another thing to consider is that players nowadays are very athletic thanks to advancements in training methods and etc...

About the defense....well Jordan has more titles compared to Mamba but Kobe is a very underrated defender. Although I would agree with you but this is more of the difference in their mindset or strategy in playing D which somthing Tex also said.

Again don't get me wrong....I am for MJ...I voted for him and for me he is still the greatest but you guys need to see both sides of the coin.

[ravit]

@ ravit : so at Miami Heat,... whos lucky to have who? Wade or Shaq?

shaq and wade.. wade and shaq

[level42]

mas maayo mo fade away si jordan kay ni kobe. hehehe... btaw as a scorer equal sila, but as leader mas intelligent si Jordan. Jordan gets my vote. mass maayo mo low post si jordan, better defender.


daghan pa labwan si kobe, he needs to surpass, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Baylor, Jerry West, Bill Russel.. but as of now, Jordan is still the greatest.

[grovestreet]

better fadeaway si jordan? i think sayup ka diha... ang fadeaway ni jordan kutob ra sa perimeter while
ang kang kobe pwede pa mo fadeaway layu sa 3 point line and don't think nga chamba ra na iya
mga shots coz its not. Although ang mga post up moves klaro kaau kinuha kang Mj like shoulder fake ug uban pa.

I think sa defense ra jud mo labaw si Jordan kang kobe in terms sa skill.
in terms of ballhandling, shooting, 3point shooting, dunking, scoring, creativity etc etc. = Kobe.

Kobe has surpassed jordan's skills. Kobe is teh god of basketball.
Kung hatagan ko ni Lord ug basketball skills nya papili-un ko between Mj and kobe...
i'd rather have kobe's skills than Mj. :mrgreen:

[grovestreet]

another point...
kung ikaw si kobe...

papili-un ka kinsa imo pasahan sa poste...
Pippen or Odom = of course adto ka ni pippen.

mo pasa ka sa gawas para mo 3 points... pili ka
Smush/Vujacic or Kerr = of course adto ka ni kerr.

pili ka ug rebounder.
Kwame or Rodman = Rodman ko oi.

get my point?

[diatabz]

Yes I do agree that Pip carried the Bulls to the Eastern Conference finals in the season after MJ's first retirement. This goes to show that Pip and the Bulls were VERY consistent on what they do. However they fell short thanks to Knicks and even if you replaced Pip with MJ...they still will fall short simply because the Bulls had some problems with points production. True that Toni was there but he's no MJ who was very clutch.

Exactly my point. We all know Jordan could rack up the points almost at will. You said yourself that he was a clutch player. So I don't think point production would've been if he was around. Plus his leadership would've also been the Bull's biggest asset. Pippen wasn't ready to be the leader, testament to that would be his argument against Phil Jackson during that game against the Knicks.

During MJ's 1st comeback, they even fell short thanks to the dynamic duo of Shaq and Penny.

The Bulls sucked during the '94-'95 season, struggling to get a play-off spot . MJ was good, but noone can do it alone. I guess we have to cut him some slack on that one. Individually, he was amazing. he averaged 31 points against the Magic.

Now about Shaq and the Lakers without Kobe....They can prolly make the playoffs because Shaq is dominating but without a second scorer like Mamba...Shaq wouldn't get enough breathing room from the double teams that they constantly throw. Lest you forget during their time in the playoffs they were up against very tough Western Conference teams such as Bibby and C-Webb of the Queens and Timmy D and Tony Parker of the Spurs. Having Fox, George, Big Shot Rob and even ex-Bull Ron Harper wasn't enough for the Lakeshow without Mamba. The current Lakers roster will not even make it to the playoffs without Mamba.

Got to hand it you, you may be right on that one. Shaq didn't seem to be the player he was in the previous season against A.I. and the Sixers. That season, Fisher and Fox were mediocre from the 3 point line as well.

Now about the post up...you failed to mention that Tex Winters also said that Kobe wasn't able to fully develop posting up because he was playing most of the time with a post up monster like Shaq in which there was no real need for Mamba to have a post up play.

Kobe's had a season and this one to buff up on his post play. He could've been the premiere post player in his team if not the Western Conference if he really wanted to. That's how good he is.

Another thing to consider is that players nowadays are very athletic thanks to advancements in training methods and etc...

90's NBA wasn't a bed of roses either. You had teams like Detroit -can someone say the Jordan Rules?-, New York, Houston, Orlando and a whole lot more. Players like Dumars and Starks killed on the court. Yes naa lagi Zone Defense today, but the league also took out hand-checking, and the ability of a post defender to put a double forearm in the back of a post player. Jordan got his ass whooped back then but he was still unstoppable that it took double- no triple teams to contain him. Kobe struggles with Artest and Bowen. He might've elbowed Ginobili in the face and a bunch of other guys, but if he did that to Dumars and Barkley. He would've been run over. Seriously.

About the defense....well Jordan has more titles compared to Mamba but Kobe is a very underrated defender. Although I would agree with you but this is more of the difference in their mindset or strategy in playing D which somthing Tex also said.

It's not even about the titles. Let's face it, Kobe can defend and I agree that people overlook the fact that he can play defense. But Jordan's defensive play was on a whole new level. He was tougher and smarter.

Again don't get me wrong....I am for MJ...I voted for him and for me he is still the greatest but you guys need to see both sides of the coin.

haha, nice bro. nalingaw ko sa atong discussion. tan.aw nuon ko ahat sa mga tapes nako da. u raised some excellent points.

[diatabz]

I think sa defense ra jud mo labaw si Jordan kang kobe in terms sa skill.
in terms of ballhandling, shooting, 3point shooting, dunking, scoring, creativity etc etc. = Kobe.

Kobe has surpassed jordan's skills. Kobe is teh god of basketball.
Kung hatagan ko ni Lord ug basketball skills nya papili-un ko between Mj and kobe...
i'd rather have kobe's skills than Mj. :mrgreen:

Bai, if in-ana nalang diay ang basehan, INDIVIDUAL SKILLS aw ari nalang ko sa mga player sa AND1. They would make Kobe blush.

[nab_uang]

another point...
kung ikaw si kobe...

papili-un ka kinsa imo pasahan sa poste...
Pippen or Odom = of course adto ka ni pippen.

mo pasa ka sa gawas para mo 3 points... pili ka
Smush/Vujacic or Kerr = of course adto ka ni kerr.

pili ka ug rebounder.
Kwame or Rodman = Rodman ko oi.

get my point?

wala ko ka-get pre.... hehehe...

what i know, Kobe is an individual player... lisod na siya mamasa... tan-awa ra gud ang Game1 nila against SUNS di ba 1 assist ra sya... ug iyang FG 15 out of 33.... hehehe...