Why did Jesus HAVE to die?

[tingkagol]

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He probably did not foresee the future of man because of this thing called freewill. He didn’t know what man would do next.

For me He is not all-knowing. He couldn’t take back and won’t take back freewill, for He wants us to love Him even if we know that evil is sweet. He loves to see us do the choice.

Ah. This was what zerone and I were talking about before our posts were "mysteriously" deleted.

I figured the problem between an "all-knowing" God vs Freewill will be solved by eliminating one of the two-- then everything goes in harmony. In your case, you think God is not all-knowing.

Come to think of it, you can eliminate freewill as well. The concept of freewill can somewhat be related to the concept of the Matrix (the movie). Man lives his life without ever knowing that the truth has been pulled over his eyes... not knowing that humans are actually slaves-- "batteries" for the AI.

[gareb]

guys, let this not be another thread on God's incoherent attributes. we have so much of those already.

[botyok]

First off, I really wasn't sure which forum this topic would fit into. Since there are no forums for debates or religion, and with holy week fast approaching, I'll just post it in this forum for it has obviously more serious topics compared to General Chit-Chat. Mods if you feel compelled to transfer this, please do.

[size=16px]Why did Jesus have to die?[/size]
How are we SAVED in the process?

This topic was recently thought upon and published in TIMEâ„¢ Magazine and it brought about three theories about why Jesus died and saved us in the process:

(1) The Good VS Evil Theory. Through Jesus' birth, death, and resurrection, He triumphs over Satan/Satan's temptations and rescues humanity from evil. It furthermore shows this analogy:
[size=9px]-----------
devil = mouse
cross = mousetrap
Christ = bait
-----------[/size]
I am still confused.

(2) The Paying-A-Debt Theory. Jesus sacrificed himself to pay the debts of humanity against God, thus we are saved from sin.

(3) The Role-Model Theory. By his example, Christ inspires people to live in obedience to God's ways. He has shown the path to salvation, and thus saving us.

Any thoughts? :idea:

the question dat y did jesus hav to die....is....hmmpppppp even u urself maka answer ana....u dont hav to ask dat...aheheheheheh lolz peace aut

[n`gel]

It's all God's plan, not man's freewill. You see, before Judas ever sold Jesus to the Pharisees, Jesus already knew about it and revealed it to the 12 disciples during the last supper. Which means, they were all part of God's plan and thus wasn't really their freewill. So... it's not their fault. Even Peter, nor those who persecuted and killed Jesus. They were instruments for the fulfillment of the scriptures and fulfillment of the death of the son of God. Like I say, it happened for a reason and it was prophesied long before the new testament was ever written, that the son of God will die in the hands of man, and by so, man will realize God's true glory.

Discussing this I am reminded of a friend of mine who described man as God's puppets.

But we see, when God created man Satan went to him and tempted Eve to defy God. God has no control over him. God didn't want his most beloved creation to follow Satan and his ways, so he did all He could do to save man. BUT man has freewill, so He let man do what he wants to do, but He had to interfere and at least provide some help and guidance. Though it was a long process but it was fulfilled after the coming of the Christ.

This is fairly simple to grasp. Although some of you in the likes of atheists would attack the very foundation and validity of the Holy Bible itself, but it's a different story.

[tingkagol]

It's all God's plan, not man's freewill. You see, before Judas ever sold Jesus to the Pharisees, Jesus already knew about it and revealed it to the 12 disciples during the last supper.

I thought you said God is not "all-knowing"?

the question dat y did jesus hav to die....is....hmmpppppp even u urself maka answer ana....u dont hav to ask dat...aheheheheheh lolz peace aut

If you really think about it, the typical answer is a cliche. People speak the conventional, and get out of the conversation right then. Most people refuse to stop and think about what they believe in. Dig. Dig deep. And then all sorts of other things come out like free-will and omniscience.

All of these are just for the sake of discussion. Many feel a critical conversation about God is wrong. What's wrong with discussing God anyway? Is it wrong in itself? PEACE, as always.

[n`gel]

Tingkagol my dear if you read my first post you would understand what I meant. Yes I did say God is not all-knowing, if we talk about man's freewill, the freedom to do wether it is right or wrong. But I did say also that there were events as told in the Bible, in His effort to save mankind from the lure of evil, that He interfered. Like He did in the great flood, the destruction of Soddom and Gomorrha, and lastly he interfered and made His chosen people as instruments for the fulfillment of the coming of His son, and forth His death.

The coming of the Christ is His plan, and his interference.

*sighs* I hate people who catch you by just one phrase not really understanding your whole thought. Can I ask you to read and understand posts a little bit more?

[tingkagol]

Yes. I get you. He is not "all-knowing" not because he can't be, you're saying it's because he chooses not to be. So you're also saying that the events happening today in our world is largely due to man's actions- not God's, right? If someone is murdered, it was never his "time" to die, for it wasn't God's will- it was man's will- for man has the gift of free-will.

If God isn't interfering now, what is his will then? Does he have no plan for us at all? Don't you believe that each and every one of us have a purpose, and is that purpose strictly up to man, not God? What is the purpose of prayer or the Holy Spirit then? If prayer and the Holy Spirit still mean anything-- then it would mean God does and still interferes.

Do you really think he only interfered in "certain events" such as the Great Flood or the Coming and Death of Christ? Or is He still interfering? Or was there never really a point in time that he did not interfere?

[shanak666]

it's his way to make people believe... it may be suicide but to him, it's fulfilling his mission, whoever might have given it to him... and of course he suffered physically, no man could have survived it, i guess...

[gareb]

i would rather stick to history and not on prohecy. the question is begging for the fact that jesus HAD to die.

the circumstances (and his arguably radical ideas) dictated his death. it was not as if he was forcing himself to be killed. what is clear is that he was killed because his philosophy and teaching posed as a threat to the status quo power play at that time. in essence, a martyr. we have plenty of those; from socrates to spinoza to rizal.

we need not dwell on the heavenly reasons why he died. the reasons are all here. it is a matter of recognizing them.

[n`gel]

Now gareb, you stick to your history dear, nobody's telling you not to. What I'm coming from is never recognized from the likes of you. Our state of understanding of the topic at hand comes in two different beliefs. I respect yours and you respect mine. Why shouldn't I dwell on heavenly reasons? Why not? If you can dwell on your history why can't I not dwell on my own belief and my own understanding of the Bible?

I think one thing we should realize now and I hope in any future discussion of topics such as this, is that there's two areas of thought everytime. Historical/scientific and the Biblical. Yeap they always clash, they always clash. Accept that.