Popular Philippine communist rebel is dead

[monroy]

---

@Saga:

Communists like to oversimplify reality to make it easy to spread their propaganda. That's why they try to equate capitalists with landlords even though the two have almost nothing in common.

Business owners today provide value to their companies, unlike landlords in the past. Without Steve Jobs, Apple would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. That alone destroys your theory that workers are the ones creating, and the owners are exploiting them. If what you said were true, then Apple would have done better when Steve Jobs was kicked out. In reality, he provided more value to the company than all its workers combined.

There may still be a few businesses around where the workers are doing all the work and the management are just sitting around doing nothing but these are few and far between. When most companies are founded, the owners sometimes have to work 24 hours straight, trying to figure out ways to perfect the quality, find new markets for their product, improve efficiency and provide vision/direction to their companies. All of these things are value-added services provided to the business by the owner so that the business can continue, and after all of that the owner also has to risk his finances by providing funds to establish the business. The workers help implement the vision and the system created by management. Without such a system, there would be no product in the first place, or the product made would be substandard quality or something nobody would want to buy. Why do you think communist countries fail to export most of their goods?

When was the last time you bought something made in North Korea or Cuba? How many products do you buy from capitalist countries like China? Your touchpad, where was it made or invented, a communist country or a capitalist one?

Even hardline communist countries like North Korea have been forced to implement market economy and private ownership to alleviate mass starvation. Communal ownership sounds good in theory, but there's a reason we abandoned it a long time ago. Communal ownership was common during prehistoric times, but so was mass starvation. In Zimbabwe, they kicked out the white farmer businessmen and gave the land to the black workers. As a result, crop yields collapsed and they had food shortages and out of control inflation. That means those white farmers/owners, far from exploiting the workers, were the people responsible for most of the value of their farms...

And this is one of the biggest mistake of communist, imo...

"we call this communist society because man has one goal. its common goal is to survive as a one community with no internal conflict or class."

Most people don't want to just survive, they want to live a good life. They want to achieve more than their fellows and that's what drives society forward. If the only goal of communism is to survive, then that's a very low goal and one that they aren't even able to meet (see North Korea and mass starvation). Citizens in most capitalist societies enjoy a lifestyle way beyond this survival mindset and that's the kicker. There's no equality in countries like Singapore, Japan or U.S. but the average person enjoys a lifestyle far beyond what people in communist countries dream of. If our only goal is to survive then that means we're no better than animals in a zoo.

[monroy]

Are we not all given Equal opportunity.

The error in the communist thought is that they still believe that social stratification is as rigid as it was back then...

Sakto jud ka maam. Lucio Tan used to just be an employee of a cigarette manufacturing company, then he saved up his money and put up Fortune Tobacco.

Henry Sy arrived in the Philippines with no money, he didn't even have shoes. That's why he started a shoe business, and now we have SM Malls.

Bill Gates used to be a lowly subcontractor for IBM, then he realized that the money was in software not hardware. He bought the rights to DOS from IBM and IBM was happy to get rid of it as they weren't making any money from software at that time. He then made so much money, he retired at 40.

[Faeries]

Personally in my opinion there is no development nor growth in a communist society.

As what Mr. Atticus Finch said :
We know all men are not created equal in the sense some people would have us believe -- some people are smarter than others, some people have more opportunity because they're born with it, some men make more money than others, some ladies make better cakes than others -- some people are born gifted beyond the normal scope of most men.

[Saga]

@Saga:

Communists like to oversimplify reality to make it easy to spread their propaganda. That's why they try to equate capitalists with landlords even though the two have almost nothing in common.

Business owners today provide value to their companies, unlike landlords in the past. Without Steve Jobs, Apple would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. That alone destroys your theory that workers are the ones creating, and the owners are exploiting them. If what you said were true, then Apple would have done better when Steve Jobs was kicked out. In reality, he provided more value to the company than all its workers combined.

There may still be a few businesses around where the workers are doing all the work and the management are just sitting around doing nothing but these are few and far between. When most companies are founded, the owners sometimes have to work 24 hours straight, trying to figure out ways to perfect the quality, find new markets for their product, improve efficiency and provide vision/direction to their companies. All of these things are value-added services provided to the business by the owner so that the business can continue, and after all of that the owner also has to risk his finances by providing funds to establish the business. The workers help implement the vision and the system created by management. Without such a system, there would be no product in the first place, or the product made would be substandard quality or something nobody would want to buy. Why do you think communist countries fail to export most of their goods?

When was the last time you bought something made in North Korea or Cuba? How many products do you buy from capitalist countries like China? Your touchpad, where was it made or invented, a communist country or a capitalist one?

Even hardline communist countries like North Korea have been forced to implement market economy and private ownership to alleviate mass starvation. Communal ownership sounds good in theory, but there's a reason we abandoned it a long time ago. Communal ownership was common during prehistoric times, but so was mass starvation. In Zimbabwe, they kicked out the white farmer businessmen and gave the land to the black workers. As a result, crop yields collapsed and they had food shortages and out of control inflation. That means those white farmers/owners, far from exploiting the workers, were the people responsible for most of the value of their farms...

And this is one of the biggest mistake of communist, imo...

"we call this communist society because man has one goal. its common goal is to survive as a one community with no internal conflict or class."

Most people don't want to just survive, they want to live a good life. They want to achieve more than their fellows and that's what drives society forward. If the only goal of communism is to survive, then that's a very low goal and one that they aren't even able to meet (see North Korea and mass starvation). Citizens in most capitalist societies enjoy a lifestyle way beyond this survival mindset and that's the kicker. There's no equality in countries like Singapore, Japan or U.S. but the average person enjoys a lifestyle far beyond what people in communist countries dream of. If our only goal is to survive then that means we're no better than animals in a zoo.

let me say this first... there is no true communist country that exist today. not even north korea. communism can only be achieve in a vacuum where all of its surrounding communities are already socialist.

i understand it is impossible if not hard for you to accept communism in its essence because of our culture. we are already used to the idea of private property that we have become self centered and it is hard for us to swallow a community which will work as one with one goal.

i find it very amusing when you said that we are no better than an animal in the zoo if our only goal is to survive. we are animals, whether you like it or not. but thats a different topic.

by the way i did not say that to survive is the only goal of a communist society. to satisfy the social needs of each individual and the society as a whole is its goal.

a profit oriented society is always heading to a disaster. like whats going on right now. because we are so profit oriented that we neglected the fact that we need to work with nature in a more balance way to survive as a specie but instead we destroyed and exploited earth blinded by profit to the point that the climate is changing drastically that living things are having hard time to adapt. thats another topic.

we are so focused into are individuality that we have forgotten that we are part of something much bigger.

in the more advance communism unlike the primitive communal model, man has reached to a point where there is a balance between his individuality and being part of the common.

about africa and the white farmers.. yes it was expected that it will collapsed because it was the same group of people who they kicked out from the farm lands who has connections to producers of fertilizers, seedlings or machinery that is use to cultivate lands. the white people control the market and those black people need the market. i think you get what i mean. a country can not live in vacuum.

an ant colony is a best example of communist type of community and it is very effective. there is no conflict within its community.

yes, it is very scary to think that our individuality will be forfeited. they say thats what makes us human, our uniqueness. but i am not saying that in communist society the individuality is erased but its more like man is able to find balance between his individuality and being part of society.

[monroy]

let me say this first... there is no true communist country that exist today. not even north korea. communism can only be achieve in a vacuum where all of its surrounding communities are already socialist.

You're right, communist countries can only be successful when there are no capitalist countries that can put them to shame.

i understand it is impossible if not hard for you to accept communism in its essence because of our culture. we are already used to the idea of private property that we have become self centered and it is hard for us to swallow a community which will work as one with one goal.

Yeah but who decides what goal that is? There are already communities that work towards a goal, it's called business.

i find it very amusing when you said that we are no better than an animal in the zoo if our only goal is to survive. we are animals, whether you like it or not. but thats a different topic.

...

by the way i did not say that to survive is the only goal of a communist society. to satisfy the social needs of each individual and the society as a whole is its goal.

That's what capitalism already does.

a profit oriented society is always heading to a disaster. like whats going on right now. because we are so profit oriented that we neglected the fact that we need to work with nature in a more balance way to survive as a specie but instead we destroyed and exploited earth blinded by profit to the point that the climate is changing drastically that living things are having hard time to adapt. thats another topic.

Are you talking about the recent crisis? If you really think this is already a disaster, you haven't heard about the Great Depression. The world will bounce back from this recession and people like you will continue dreaming about something that'll never happen.

we are so focused into are individuality that we have forgotten that we are part of something much bigger.

People should be free to do whatever they want. To be part of groups they wanna be a part of and also not to be part of groups they don't wanna be a part of. In other words, freedom of association.

in the more advance communism unlike the primitive communal model, man has reached to a point where there is a balance between his individuality and being part of the common.

That already exists in capitalist societies. Individuality (earnings) taxes (common good).

about africa and the white farmers.. yes it was expected that it will collapsed because it was the same group of people who they kicked out from the farm lands who has connections to producers of fertilizers, seedlings or machinery that is use to cultivate lands. the white people control the market and those black people need the market. i think you get what i mean. a country can not live in vacuum.

What for real? What's stopping the black farmers from buying fertilizer, seedlings or machinery? Are you sure that's all you need to run a farm? How about the knowledge on how to use the machinery, seedlings and fertilizer or what crops to plant and when, soil testing etc? And what's with the conspiracy theories, white people don't control the market, especially in Zimbabwe.

an ant colony is a best example of communist type of community and it is very effective. there is no conflict within its community.

Sayop ka doh... Queen Ant Will Sacrifice Colony to Retain Throne | LiveScience

yes, it is very scary to think that our individuality will be forfeited. they say thats what makes us human, our uniqueness. but i am not saying that in communist society the individuality is erased but its more like man is able to find balance between his individuality and being part of society.

Yeah it's scary to have someone like Kim Jong Il tell you how to live your life. No thanks, man. I prefer to be in control of my own life, call it selfishness if you want.

[Saga]

You're right, communist countries can only be successful when there are no capitalist countries that can put them to shame.

Yeah but who decides what goal that is? There are already communities that work towards a goal, it's called business.

...

That's what capitalism already does.

Are you talking about the recent crisis? If you really think this is already a disaster, you haven't heard about the Great Depression. The world will bounce back from this recession and people like you will continue dreaming about something that'll never happen.

People should be free to do whatever they want. To be part of groups they wanna be a part of and also not to be part of groups they don't wanna be a part of. In other words, freedom of association.

That already exists in capitalist societies. Individuality (earnings) taxes (common good).

What for real? What's stopping the black farmers from buying fertilizer, seedlings or machinery? Are you sure that's all you need to run a farm? How about the knowledge on how to use the machinery, seedlings and fertilizer or what crops to plant and when, soil testing etc? And what's with the conspiracy theories, white people don't control the market, especially in Zimbabwe.

Sayop ka doh... Queen Ant Will Sacrifice Colony to Retain Throne | LiveScience

Yeah it's scary to have someone like Kim Jong Il tell you how to live your life. No thanks, man. I prefer to be in control of my own life, call it selfishness if you want.

i perfectly understand your views, and i respect it.. i myself most of the time get too focus with my own individuality that i forget how the people around me are doing...

but i guess we agree on one thing, capitalist system is a profit oriented system its not the best system when it comes to satisfying our basic social needs...


by the way.. about your link about queen ants sacrificing.. i think you miss interpreted the whole logic
the workers will try to kill excess queen until one is left. so the strategy of some queen is to produce less eggs to save her energy and when the time comes she has enough strength to fight or stay alive until she is the only one left....

but of course i did not say we follow the ants and its queen.. we learn from how they work together as one community. we are much more better and wiser than them... we can always find a way instead of killing the excess queen....

by the way, freedom comes with responsibility. coz it seems you are just like saying we can do what we want to do even to the point that you are directly or indirectly hurting other people.. that is not freedom.

[street_of_no_return]

to bring down one enemy and they find someone even worse to replace him - General Shepherd

kinxa kahay e.puli ani niya.

[Faeries]

i perfectly understand your views, and i respect it.. i myself most of the time get too focus with my own individuality that i forget how the people around me are doing...

but i guess we agree on one thing, capitalist system is a profit oriented system its not the best system when it comes to satisfying our basic social needs...


by the way.. about your link about queen ants sacrificing.. i think you miss interpreted the whole logic
the workers will try to kill excess queen until one is left. so the strategy of some queen is to produce less eggs to save her energy and when the time comes she has enough strength to fight or stay alive until she is the only one left....

but of course i did not say we follow the ants and its queen.. we learn from how they work together as one community. we are much more better and wiser than them... we can always find a way instead of killing the excess queen....

by the way, freedom comes with responsibility. coz it seems you are just like saying we can do what we want to do even to the point that you are directly or indirectly hurting other people.. that is not freedom.

but that defeat the purpose of communism isnt it? because even in a communist ant community there is still the elite class-- which is the queen?

I thought its supposed to be a classless society.

My piece is we cannot get away with a classless society.

[clarkhkent]

ambot lang og tinuod ba sad kha ni pero kon tinoud aw he may rest in peace!

[Saga]

but that defeat the purpose of communism isnt it? because even in a communist ant community there is still the elite class-- which is the queen?

I thought its supposed to be a classless society.

My piece is we cannot get away with a classless society.

but we r not ants right... if they r able to somehow create a community modeling communism with their less intellect why can't we? r we less capable than them?

can we realy not create a classless society or you just don't want to exlplore the idea because you belong to the upper class with much easier life compared to the lower? why must their be a lower class and a higher class. i thought we believe we r all equal.